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Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: David Ingram] #179477
05/23/09 12:28 PM
05/23/09 12:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
What the heck are you Carolina boys doing surfing the forum on a holiday weekend? I have an excuse, it's raining buckets here with no end in sight.


I'm in Alachua and it is sunny and breezy, but the boat is in Carolina. If I can get enough done here next week I want to get to Keowee.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Mugrace72] #179480
05/23/09 12:51 PM
05/23/09 12:51 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Jack,
I'm not sure where your getting the info from all the "content" N-20 owners, but as of the last week I've had ALOT of correspondence on alot of class issues, from what I've seen it's split . You can't compare the N-20 to the h-16, there's a world of difference. The n-20 is primarily a distance racing machine, it's a very capable marks racer. Not being a N-20 owner your looking at it from an H-16 point of view, which doesn't work.
The status quo will not keep the N-20 growing. No one has a plan, this is just a sounding board, right now. Sounds like your pretty out of touch with what's happening in the N-20 class. The casual bottom of the fleet are where they are going to be whether the hardcore racers get new sails or not. The nationals all ready are in the teens as far as racers go, and your solution is to do nothing and the class will flourish. One thing lot's of folks seem to overlook is that when other 20' boats classes died there was something there to fill the spot. There is nothing to replace the N-20 right now, and I don't see anything on the horizon(read Matt's post).When the 6.0 died it wasn't because the N.E guys opened up the class it died because the Inter 20 replaced it, for better or for worse.Big guys can't be competitive on the F-18, the need for the N-20 is there.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #179481
05/23/09 01:09 PM
05/23/09 01:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Jack,
I'm not sure where your getting the info from all the "content" N-20 owners, but as of the last week I've had ALOT of correspondence on alot of class issues, from what I've seen it's split .


You are certainly on top of it Todd.

My coments are strictly my opinion and should be considered only that.

If there are no "bottom feeders" to worry about, then full speed ahead..damn the torpedos.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Mugrace72] #179484
05/23/09 01:42 PM
05/23/09 01:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Guys,

in the UK, 20 years ago, Reg and Rob White launched the Hurricane 5.9. Some years later, Rob, Muself and a few others started to plau around with Asym kites on the boat - this was the days when the kite was in a bag on the tramp.

We then moved to pole mounted chutes

THeu then moved to self tacking jibs

Finnally the class (AS A CLASS) is moving to a new mainsail plan.

ALL THIS WAS DONE WITHIN THE CLASS!!!!!!

THe class has evolved with time.... I FEEL the N20 needs to do the same.

Last edited by scooby_simon; 05/23/09 02:02 PM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: scooby_simon] #179488
05/23/09 02:10 PM
05/23/09 02:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Isn't this whole thread dedicated to why a smaller boat can beat a bigger boat across the line? The N20 sailors say they were not racing the F18 sailors, but I BET the F18 sailors are racing the N20 sailors (this is documented in this thread, by the way). People on shorter boats have a reason to to try harder to beat the bigger boats (Napolean syndrome).

I think Performance shoud invest in an upgrade strategy for the mast and sail design for the N20 - similar to what they did with the F17. It is too soon to tell if the F17 fleet is divided over the upgrades - it it is a perfect experiment of a SMOD making changes to keep up with the fleet. Some think it went flawlessly and others thinks it stinks....

I LOVE the N20 as a big boy boat an wish it thrives. I one day aspire to be big enough to have one!!! Otherwise some other 20 footer will supplant the N20 as the distance racer of choice (that statement is compliment to the N20 and its design).


Tom
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: scooby_simon] #179490
05/23/09 03:16 PM
05/23/09 03:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline OP
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Guys,

in the UK, 20 years ago, Reg and Rob White launched the Hurricane 5.9. Some years later, Rob, Muself and a few others started to plau around with Asym kites on the boat - this was the days when the kite was in a bag on the tramp.

We then moved to pole mounted chutes

THeu then moved to self tacking jibs

Finnally the class (AS A CLASS) is moving to a new mainsail plan.

ALL THIS WAS DONE WITHIN THE CLASS!!!!!!

THe class has evolved with time.... I FEEL the N20 needs to do the same.


I agree, but it's time! I doubt very seriously I'll be capable of sailing an N-20 in 20 years, that's a snail's pace of evolution. If anyone would go back and read this whole thread, they'd see that we're trying to work within the class association first. So far the factory has been receptive to ideas, so there is no reason for a "revolution" hypothesizing the what if's is all that's being done here.
The first step is getting a cohesive owner's association together, we are well on our way on this step. From there we can approach the issues as needed with input from the ones who count THE Owners.



"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #179493
05/23/09 03:33 PM
05/23/09 03:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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[quote=Team_Cat_Fever The first step is getting a cohesive owner's association together, we are well on our way on this step. From there we can approach the issues as needed with input from the ones who count THE Owners.

[/quote]

CORRECT
the current owners are you priority and you are doing the right thing by contacting them. Some of the strongest classes are rubbish boats but they are pushed along by a good owners association. [Not that the N20 is a rubbish boat by a long way]


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: tshan] #179497
05/23/09 06:03 PM
05/23/09 06:03 PM

D
DUH
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DUH
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D



quote/Isn't this whole thread dedicated to why a smaller boat can beat a bigger boat across the line? The N20 sailors say they were not racing the F18 sailors, but I BET the F18 sailors are racing the N20 sailors (this is documented in this thread, by the way). People on shorter boats have a reason to to try harder to beat the bigger boats (Napolean syndrome).quote/


I bought Napolean when I was trying to grow dreadlocks in high school. Tshan, Like I said in my post you "documented," I would do the same thing no matter what boat I was racing. What part of that sounds like Napoleon Syndrome?

Don't take my post the wrong way HillbillySplice. You boys have fun with this project.

Last edited by DUH; 05/23/09 06:08 PM.
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Tornado] #179506
05/23/09 09:08 PM
05/23/09 09:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 39
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Mysterio 6 Offline
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Why is this N20 group surprised that this is happening is the real question!Just keep sailing because it is going to take years no decades for F18 to make a dent in this economy..

Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Mysterio 6] #179523
05/24/09 10:02 AM
05/24/09 10:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline OP
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Who said anyone was surprised?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: ] #179524
05/24/09 10:04 AM
05/24/09 10:04 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by DUH
quote/Isn't this whole thread dedicated to why a smaller boat can beat a bigger boat across the line? The N20 sailors say they were not racing the F18 sailors, but I BET the F18 sailors are racing the N20 sailors (this is documented in this thread, by the way). People on shorter boats have a reason to to try harder to beat the bigger boats (Napolean syndrome).quote/


I bought Napolean when I was trying to grow dreadlocks in high school. Tshan, Like I said in my post you "documented," I would do the same thing no matter what boat I was racing. What part of that sounds like Napoleon Syndrome?

Don't take my post the wrong way HillbillySplice. You boys have fun with this project.

Euroneck,
If you want, this hillbilly can fix your rudders so they don't break and teach ya which side of the line to be on when the gun goes off. Only for you, don't tell nobody.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: SoggyCheetoh] #179559
05/24/09 10:59 PM
05/24/09 10:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Originally Posted by SoggyCheetoh
Originally Posted by Will_R
Yeah, but look at the width of the seams. If the person assembling the sail overlaps a little too much or too little, the shape (and size) changes.


BINGO!


For our little bits of input - we sailed at about 420. We both dropped weight for this race, we possibly could get down to 405-410. Not having sailed an F-18, it's still hard to conceive that the weight would not be an issue. Even on the 20 you can feel it.

There are simply no F-18s where we sail. We've got A-Cats, N-20s, and F-16s.

Consistency and quality in the sails would be nice. Example conversation as we tried to get the main looking right - "you guys need some more spreader rake to take the belly out of that sail, you should be around 1.75"" "yeah, but we're already at 3.25 inches" "hmmm, good luck with that...". Not to pile on, but it goes with the new trampoline that doesn't have the proper number of holes cut for the rear lacing, the self tacker with the random alignment of the supports, and the daggerboards with 1/4"+ of material that had to be trimmed off from both the leading and trailing edges. The best that it seems you can do is buy your new sails and take them straight to a sailmaker to have them fixed.

On the owner's class thing - maybe the way to look at it is forming a group that represents distance racing, not the buoys side of things. That way the OD class can stay the same, but there could be a different set of things defined for distance events.

Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Keith] #179568
05/25/09 07:53 AM
05/25/09 07:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by Keith

On the owner's class thing - maybe the way to look at it is forming a group that represents distance racing, not the buoys side of things. That way the OD class can stay the same, but there could be a different set of things defined for distance events.


That's what I suggested but the acrobatic rooster only wants advice from "owners".

This topic isn't "For NACRA owners only!!!!!".

It is great for "Tawd" to be organizing the class. But why was this never done before?

NACRA builds great boats but it seems that they have a way of administering their classes that isn't in the best interest of the sailors. IMO, Hobie fails at it too.

Sails in particular have always been a sore spot for me. There are many reasons why free choice of sailmaker is beneficial to all, even the boat builder.

You have to have a published sail plan and you might want to measure in at big events, but that is a piece of cake to get done. Then you can have fat boy sails if you need them, whatever colors you want, and even sewn seams on your spinnaker right out of the bag!

You don't need to get into class politics to get the changes you want for offshore events. That is my advice, (worth what you pay).

Todd, you can get everything you want right now by Mandate. You only need to get approval from 10-20 distance/Tybee folks. If you try to shift the whole class you will be mired in small talk for years. You want people in Iowa or Indonesia voting on your visions?

BTW, you seem to think I am against modernizing your class...not the case. I approve but just think you are trying to move the mountain when you only need a load of sand.

Either way, keep it up big boy. grin


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Keith] #179569
05/25/09 07:57 AM
05/25/09 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith
Originally Posted by SoggyCheetoh
Originally Posted by Will_R
Yeah, but look at the width of the seams. If the person assembling the sail overlaps a little too much or too little, the shape (and size) changes.


BINGO!



On the owner's class thing - maybe the way to look at it is forming a group that represents distance racing, not the buoys side of things. That way the OD class can stay the same, but there could be a different set of things defined for distance events.


I think that may be a good idea, but I still think we need a full on owner's association no matter what type racing you do.I think it may be good to have a distance racing subset of the owner's association.Once we get in touch with everyone we'll see what the consensus is.
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #179572
05/25/09 08:09 AM
05/25/09 08:09 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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I can pretty much tell you that creating a separate set of rules for one type of race versus another is a quick way to kill the class. I know for a fact that I'm not going to want to buy two sets of sails for the same boat.

IMO fixing and updating the current sailplan over time is probably the best idea. Next year, the spin gets updated. 2 years later, the main, 2 years later, the jib. This way it gives everyone in the class who would normally replace their sails every X number of years the opportunity to plan when they move to the next cut.


Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #179573
05/25/09 08:20 AM
05/25/09 08:20 AM
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Tony_F18 Offline
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How many official members does the N20 Class have anyway?

Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #179575
05/25/09 08:28 AM
05/25/09 08:28 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Undecided
I can pretty much tell you that creating a separate set of rules for one type of race versus another is a quick way to kill the class. I know for a fact that I'm not going to want to buy two sets of sails for the same boat.

IMO fixing and updating the current sailplan over time is probably the best idea. Next year, the spin gets updated. 2 years later, the main, 2 years later, the jib. This way it gives everyone in the class who would normally replace their sails every X number of years the opportunity to plan when they move to the next cut.

Tad,
I agree , I'd love to see changes happen faster than that, but I think that's the way it needs to be so no-one feels like they've been left out to dry.If the factory is unwilling to help THEN we address that problem when it arises. I can't imagine they wouldn't want to have the opportunity to sell more sails.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #179582
05/25/09 09:43 AM
05/25/09 09:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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I'm enjoying this.

Only because I'm currently boatless, (other than sailing the boats at the local yacht club with my family- usually ensigns).

Without a doubt, my next ride will be a N20, of one of the F18s.

I'm currently at 162#'s, and about to turn 49. I'm leaning towards the F18, but my last boat was a fairly fast N6.0na +.

Todd, I think what you are doing, whatever direction you take, is still positive for the N20 class.

Although I now live WAY up north, I'm still planning to do some of the premier distance races again, like the GT300, and entering my first Ty500.

Anyone reading this, I speak spin, I drive very well, and I'll fly about anywhere on my expense to crew for you.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #179588
05/25/09 10:19 AM
05/25/09 10:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
I can pretty much tell you that creating a separate set of rules for one type of race versus another is a quick way to kill the class. I know for a fact that I'm not going to want to buy two sets of sails for the same boat.

IMO fixing and updating the current sailplan over time is probably the best idea. Next year, the spin gets updated. 2 years later, the main, 2 years later, the jib. This way it gives everyone in the class who would normally replace their sails every X number of years the opportunity to plan when they move to the next cut.



Here's my reasoning for the distance racing association - in doing SMOD, the builder/class association is going to go for the biggest group (to sell boats and grow the class), and that is going to be buoys. I'm not advocating a full set of different rules and such, but maybe some exceptions and extensions to the buoys rules that make sense (from gear life to safety to competitiveness) that buoys won't care about. This can be done on a class by class basis or an overall distance racing association. Maybe we can learn and apply some things for safety and speed...

Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #179604
05/25/09 02:56 PM
05/25/09 02:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Oct 12-15 -- NACRA North Americans, FWYC, Ft Walton, FL, tba

How many of the Tybee 20's will take the week and do the NA's?

That would be another week of vacation time...

Those are the folks that care about class legal equipment.... Everyone else just needs gear that measures in and belongs on the level playing field created by your rules.

What is the average age of the 20's in the Tybee? 5 years old perhaps.. A 6 year plan to phase in a new fixed sail plan would leave the age of the boat at 11 years... Hmm... a bit long in the tooth for a race boat.

Classes make changes quickly.... Those that want to stay with the class and be part of the future... move... those that don't plan to race in the class stay put. The A class has development in hulls and foils yearly and the class continues to grow. The difference with the N20 non class is that the A class has a clear racing program that is drawing 15 to 20 boats to the regional regattas and the rules for development are spelled out.

You guys should focus on the class racing program as well as the rules. Racers do races they want to compete in... The class just makes life easier to make it happen.


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