Jay,

I think that the main issues brought up in this thread, other than the initial question about the N-20's future in the T-500, are:

1. Quality and consistency of the current sails is under scrutiny. It seems that the current sails lack consistancy and the situation begs for independent measurement of sails, regardless of who make them.
2. Sail development within the current "sail plan" criteria was suggested. For instance, without changing the sail area of the sails, there is certainly a lot of room for sail shape improvement. The spinnakers can have different entry shapes and draft (amount and placement), leading to huge differences in performance. The same "developments" can be accomplished in the main and jib, as well, through opening up the sails to other manufacturers.
3. Most importantly, some of the owners have expressed interest in becoming autominous (sp?) or having more say in the class.

There are other issues covered in the thread, but these seem to me to be the "biggies".

Steve

Thank you for the clarification.

With respect to point #2, I would suspect changes in the sail shape would be helpful only if it
(1) broadened the conditions that the sail plan is effective,
(2) increased sail plan efficiently in certain conditions,
(3) reduced mfg. costs, or
(4) all of the above (obviously preferable)

I think the N20 was originally optimized as a W/L racer, and has since proved its mettle as a near-coastal distance racer.

Given that those disciplines are so widely different in terms of the sail plan effectiveness, what ONE change to, say, the spinnaker shape would improve the N20 performance in both bouys and distance?

Would a finer entry on the spin be good for high angle reaching in a distance venue, but also reduce the ability to go deep and fast on a W/L course? I'm not a sail designer, so I don't know anything about that...

I think I'd focus on point #1 (quality control) first, before the 'nuclear option' (open source). I can't see the volume of sails needed for the N20 fleet being enough to gain any economy of scale or competition amongst suppliers ultimately resulting in lower cost to buyers.

I'm not even sure that the same sail supplier would want to offer optional sail materials for the class (like pentex vs. mylar vs. dacron on the sail plan), since it would reduce the number of sails constructed in each material, further reducing the sailmakers efficiency and ROI.

Fractioning the already small market base amongst other lofts, each of whom would most likely have to do their own R&D (doubtful EP or PC would share all that with them), and pass those costs to the buyer just doesn't sound like it would reduce costs...

On point #3 (taking control of the class), is this due mainly to the lack of communication between the class management and the owners? It would seem to me that this is the case.

Any thoughts?

I don't think there is as much concern a/b dramatically improving the shape or optimizing it for W/L or distance racing as there is a/b quality and consistancy. If everyone has the exact same main/jib/spi, so long as the shape is decent and the quality solid I think everyone would be happy.

and what would be the best way owners/buyers could 'encourage' this improvement to become reality?

I don't think a revolt to open development would do it....

Why such a big deal about improvements? If it's OD, then who cares so much? Of course, consistent quality means a lot, but will huge improvements start an "arms race" where everyone has to buy a new set of sails to be competitive?

Kind of a baited post,
Of course it doesn't matter to you, you've got your custom made sweetass tiger sails, and I'm sure you'll have custom sweetass wildcat sails. Whilst(how 'bout dat) we poke along with our 15 year old tanbark cotton sails. I'd like to see what we've got regulated and maximized, i.e. get the most from what we have .If EP or performance Europe can't fill the bill or handle the task, which there is no reason they couldn't then we should look into other avenues.I think they deserve the chance at least.EP's been making Nacra sails a long time,maybe they've gotten a little complacent ,it's just time to push for a little tweaking.OD or not people want to go as fast as they can for their money.

The big "IF". When we have to race against an F18 on handicap, it's not fair to do it with old technology sails when the number for the F18 isn't moving much but the sail plan is.

It sucks to finish so far ahead of one that you can't see it on the horizon and see him ahead of you on the line the next day. You can relate.

Plus OD would imply that all the sails are EXACTLY the same.

Seems to me that this is not a current problem... it's been the norm since the class was formed if you listen to the old guard in the fleet.

Snipe
505
Finn
Star
470
j/24
Farr 40
Lightning
Thistle
Tornado
The list goes on and on.
One Designs with multiple sail makers.

Hey Ding! Watch this!


This perfectly makes my prior point and this was clearly illuminated during the last Tybee 500. A strict measurement based handicap system can't accomodate for the differences between an open box rule (like F18) and a strict one design class (like N20). I'm not saying that if the wind was different, that they N20 wouldn't have been the boat to be on...I'm just saying.

I think Jake kind of hits on what I've been thinking.
I've not been on an F18 in a while but I remember how nice the sails on the Tiger are. You know Hobie didn't make those sails, Ulman did. On the F18 if your sails suck, your boat might as well be garbage too. On the 20, there has been no other choice for sails... and no class competition to drive quality in both shape and construction.

Yes Jake you made this point MONTHS ago! But, even a hybrid can't account for a every situation.

So making the event handicap got the 18's on the line and made the event more economically viable but, some of those that lost to the 18's feel they were beat by the number, and this is good, how?. I have a feeling this is why JW moved through handicap results quicky because we all know at the end of the day handicap results really don't mean much and they mean even less on a 5 day 547 mile distance race.

I don't have a rooster in this fight, but I have followed the dialoge and also the race, as many have done.

I thought the rivalry between the fleets was interesting, and close enough that the best sailors prevailed pretty much as you might predict.

Why corrupt a perfectly good One-Design class because of this one race?

You can simply modify the sail rule in the Sailing Instructions and NOR.

Those of us with "dead boats" have done it on our own. When/if you go to an Official Class event, you still can use the SMOD sails.

A race such as the Tybee mandates more durable components and you ought to be able to go outside the One-Design template if it is written into the Race Rules. You don't need to change the class to do that.

This isn't all about the Tybee, it's about the platform as a whole.The Tybee was the crucible and I beleive it opened alot of eyes.

Ding,
How did handicap make the race economically viable? For the organizer maybe.

I was just kidding (sort of) - I really don't care but was looking to divert the thread a little!

I think the system that JW selected had the best number comparison he could have chosen....it's especially difficult to handicap a distance race - as we all know.

I hear what you are saying Todd, but this will kill the class faster than leaving it alone. It has happened over and over.

Even the Hobie 16 has left literally thousands of viable boats in the lurch. By changing the minimum weight and sail shape alone, they have betrayed Hobie Alter’s basic tennent. They seem to be happy with 35 boat NA’s, but they could still get 100 if they had never changed the boat.

The N20 has a very dedicated following beyond the Tybee/distance crowd. Most of them are happy with their One-Design boat. You should respect that and the class will have longevity.

You can and should address the durability issues with the suppliers, but my wisdom says leave the class alone.

If you evolve the boat and leave the casual “bottom of the fleet” behind, you will have some pretty good sailors finishing in last place in 10 boat NA’s.

Yes for the organizer, I'm also assuming that more boats is better to a point.

What the heck are you Carolina boys doing surfing the forum on a holiday weekend? I have an excuse, it's raining buckets here with no end in sight. What else am I going to do, I already shagged the wife.

Just finished installing powered attic vents....much fiberglass in arms. Sailing tomorrow (it's drizzly here now).