What do you suggest?
My thoughts to keep it viable would be to open up the sails. EP or anyone could make them, but the shapes needs to be updated.The only manufacture complaints I've had is about the price gouging.

An Infusion 20 would be great, but with no new N-20s being built, I don't see that happening.

same width?

Us big boys have been wondering that for a while now. The Fox landed in the US like a brick and sunk. I don't think we've seen an Eagle here or any of the other proposed F20 type boats.

The I20 is getting dated.... The M20 is 50k+ We would like newer, lighter, faster, better for the fat boys club. Is that realistic right now? Not really. Here in the US, we're either our own market (see the H20, 6.0na and I20) and that's fizzling out, so now we're becoming a trickle down market from the EU (read F18).

Many of us hoped to see a F20 class start but lack of manufacturer support (i.e. boats that meet the same standard) is a MAJOR hurdle to cross. There have been talks of a US manufacturer producing a boat and we've even talked a/b producing a platform but it just doesn't look viable.

http://savannahnow.com/node/723941

"It's safe to say the F-18s are the future of this race," said race director Chuck Bargeron, a Tybee Island resident. "They are the hottest and biggest fleet around. Even the 20-foot sailors see it coming."

Personally I don't think anything needs to change about the N20 we've got except sail development.

I'm sure that I could think of 15 things that would be near the top of the list of things I would change about it, but the big one is the sails. This years' T500 vindicated what we've been seeing in EMSA for the past two years or so. Sail development makes faster boats.

The problem, I believe, is this..

Last year Chuck sat down the sailors and said the Tybee 500 needed a lot more boats to keep the race running.

This year, many teams worked extremely hard to bring more boats to the line and were very successful.

Chuck used the exact words "phase out" regarding the N20 class. Note: he said next year they were certainly invited.

The problem thus seems to be the agenda and future of the race. The N20 guys are surely not going to carry forth the amount of time, effort, and money they did this year if they are under the impression that they will be swiftly replaced if enough F18s show up. If it is believed that the F18s can bring 20 boats to the line next year then by all means make it an F18 race. Otherwise, as said earlier, don't bite the hand that feeds.


PS: are my statements honestly compromised by the number of posts I have? Are you familiar with the term ad hominem?

I can see the point regardig sail development, the F18 class is a newer generation so it has the upper hand in that.

Interestingly the Infusion hasn't changed sail design since 2006 so its not like a continual evolution, just steps..

It should be possible for a new 20 to be viable, what if the carbon rig was swaped for carbon hulls? then you have a lighter platform, masts have come a long way since the old teardrops so an alloy section would be fine (as seen on the Singapore 20's)

Isnt all this saying you can come if you have a fleet like saying:
You can come to the party, but only if you bring your own crowd?

The hobie tiger came out before the inter 20... if that is what your getting at?

The Tiger has had several updates to its sail plan, I think there have been 3 or 4 mainsail design and changes to jibs and kites. actually the kite sheeting position has changed a couple of times too.

No doubt at all macca, but that is why the tiger can still keep up, if it was SMOD and had the original pin head sail, where would they be now?

SMOD is just about money hungry manufactures as far as i am concerned.

Well, SMOD has its place. But its impossible to have a SMOD class remain competitive in a formula environment like F18.

For a time there were considerations of doing a VectorWorks 20 footer and even a Blade 20. The latter having more width and was intending to use the Tornado rig. Both of which have stalled and I don't see either being launched.

Personally I think that was a smart decision. There doesn't seem to be a market for a new 20 footer world wide (excepting any 20 footer that is chosen as the new olympic boat). The EU F20 class was pretty much killed when the Nacra N20 boats were reformed into the Nacra 20 One-Design class. Hobie discontinued the Fox shortly after or before (I can't remember) and the Eagle 20's are different with each new boat coming of the small production line. Markets at this time are what ? UK and NL and USA, although I think the UK has phased out the Nacr 20 as well. All other important nations like France and Australia simply do not have a 20 foot class worth mentioning other then the Tornado. And the tornado class is very small also.

Any new 20 footer must therefor make a start of its own and that is not in the card in the opinion of the guys playing with the designs like the V20 and the Blade 20. Additionally, the market in NL and USA doesn't appear to be very large at all. Doubtful if it can carry the development costs.

I understand this has nothing to do with a new Nacra 20; it is just background information. And if any manufacturer will do a new 20 footer then it is most likely Nacra as the others have move out of that range or have become convinced that it is unmarketable.

Wouter

Maybe this is a can of sh!t,

but why can't you 20 boys just do like Mr Smyth always did, and come up with a new sailplan and develop your own stuff? Create your own class, as it were?

I cite examples such as N6.0 Express, Prindle 19MX...

Mark Smith has an aftermarket main for his N20... you can do it!

Tami,
Alot of people have mentioned that. However a lot of people involved with the whole Nacra 6.0NA class warn us about being "cut off" from the factory. I certainly don't want to throw the manufacturer out or alienate them. Wouter is correct in saying that the marketplace wont support a new 20 footer - especially since all that needs to happen is the sailplan for the 20 be updated.

You guys make it sound like a conspiracy but it's straight and simple economics. Nacra is building boats on the west coast as fast as they can but they are almost all F18s - that's what people are ordering. For the 20's, as volume goes down, prices go up...I think the mast is a different issue and maybe the other prices have gone up a little more than they should - but it's a minor point and one that Nacra has very little business motivation to deal with since nobody is buying 20s (which started before the price increases).

Soooo what do you do? The only way (only way) classes survive is if you build your fleets and bring in new sailors. You bring in new sailors buying used boats who migrate to new or we buy new and sell down, working the ground, talking it up, and helping people get started. More sailors = more volume = more support from Nacra.

We own the boats so we could definitely open up the sails, the trampolines, rigging, and other soft goods to various manufacturers but we need to ask ourselves if this will help us grow new sailors. How significantly will it also serve to alienate ourselves from the single source of hulls, beams, and masts, etc by making their continued support of the boat even less business effective for them.

I'm not kicking F18 - I really like sailing F18...but as it relates to the 20, it is really the big problem through it's continued success and absorbing a significant amount of the sailor base. As a 20 class, I think we would serve ourselves better by continuing to promote the boat as the "Cadillac of the seas" and the king of distance racing. It does have a niche but I am of the opinion that any drastic changes in the class would only serve to weaken it.

I also don't care that the F18s are faster on some points of sail - so what? I know that when I race you guys in the Tybee that we're all running the same equipment and that I'm not up against Mr Daddy Warbucks, Todd Hart, who might have had a special spinnaker cut for the weather conditions he expected to see that week.

I'm not suggesting inaction - quite the contrary...It will take some energetic people and action, like what Velocity has been doing, to continue the little bit of positive growth the class has seen. Going after the manufacturer only serves to lessen their business motivation to continue support of the class. It's a complex issue.

Thank you Jake.

What I think I'm trying to suggest, is a manufacturer-backed, class-member influenced sail plan update.

I'd love to do exactly that, but as Tad said, fear of being cut off by the factory has that option stalled. The 6.0 died after they stepped away from the factory,but there also was the N-20 to fill the niche. NOW there is no boat to fill the niche, so I don't know how it would go. The factory stopped making 6.0s completely after they divorced themselves.
Parts like cross beams, castings, masts, and cast fittings would be pretty hard to outsource if Performance was spiteful enough to stop making them because we ,as owners, took it upon ourselves to change the boats. At this point I think that we've hit the wall and opening up the soft goods(sails, tramps, bags,) on the boat is the only way to extend it's life.
Maybe Carl Robert's was right years ago when he was pushing hard to go F-20, or maybe it's time has come, but something needs to be done. If we (owners) sit back and do nothing the class will go down. Everyone is predicting it, even though there is no proof yet of a major decline. Alot of the voices that are critical of the N-20 are X N-20 sailors and because they have switched are passionate about their new choice.
I would like anyone who reads this that owns a Nacra 20 to PM me their name, E-mail and contact number so I can at least try to get a contact group and possibly an owners association together. I know Dave Ingram and Brian Karr attempted something along these lines and input from them would be priceless if they are willing to provide it.With Perf. being bought out and the tables changed maybe the outcome will be different, we can only hope.
Todd Hart

Jake I guess you can type faster than me.

Macca,

I was origionally building a 20 and there is one in the shop virtually complete except final fitout and assembly. This was right about the time we got involved with the Blade.

At that time I was making this boat to do races like the Tybee, Steeple etc. The F20 class was making a lot of noise but could never get anyone to agree on what the formula would be, so that died. Chuck told us flat out that we would not be allowed to race it in the Tybee if we built it, because he wanted the race to be 1 design and had committed to the I20 at the time.

Without being allowed in the only major US distance race our customer base was now pretty slim. The customer base for a 20 is then limited to the to the guys who have a preconceived notion that they can not fit on a smaller boat. The group serious about racing cans were finally following the Europeans and the F18 was moving in the US.

I would love to see the 20 class open up and go somewhere. There are several completed designs going already to jump start it but no momentum. There is a base with the F18 and the trends in design really make most of the claims about crew weight competitiveness BS.