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Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Mark Schneider] #178807
05/19/09 07:16 AM
05/19/09 07:16 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
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Rock Hill,SC
Mark
Reread my post, you are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth.


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: scooby_simon] #178811
05/19/09 07:32 AM
05/19/09 07:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I was trying to say that racing these F16 boats, that are every bit as sensitive to weight placement as an A-cat, will wear any crew out more rapidly then the N20's or F18's. That has also been the experience from F18 crews that sailed on my boat. Now, that is fine for bouy racing and single day distance racing, but is PROBABLY also a significant discriminating factor for the week long slug that is the Tybee 500.

So if you want me to write :

Quote

Even if the boats can take it (they probably can) , I cannot


Then that is fine, no argument from me, as long as you do realize what that comment still encloses.

Ohh and the rougth conditions that the Tybee and Worrell races got over the years are pretty standard operating conditions where I sail. That is with maybe excepting the swell, but the chop we get here makes up for that.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/19/09 07:39 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Mark Schneider] #178814
05/19/09 07:42 AM
05/19/09 07:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Every racer knows who the competition is... Sailors are racing against their peers.. They are racing those top flight guys... no matter what flavor of boat they are on. This is human nature and it operates right on down the pecking order.

If someone was first to the beach on a N20... Do you really believe They ignored the time the first F18 finished... BS!

Find me somebody who let a boat pass them because they were in the other class... I simply don't believe it.



While it bothers me to agree with Mark, here he is spot on.

There was a very large spread of skill levels present in this race. The 18's were right in the mix with the 20's in light air because of the drivers more than the percieved pointing ability of the designs. More boats means more people will have someone right with them during the race reguardless of the type of boat. If the boats are close enough in thoeretical performance I do not see what difference it makes in allowing them in the race. If there was sufficient support to field 30+ boats of a 1 design then put on restrictions, but up untill then let it be open.

We had quite a lively discussion on the beach at Cocoa about this. Why not run an F16 in this race. The handicap number is very close to the F18. Several F16's have finished first to the beach in distance races against the 18 and 20 against crews that were in this race. The organizers can do what they want with their race but in theory it would be bennefical for the beach crews to restrict the race to skill as opposed to boat type if you want try and get them all to finish as close as possible.

Brian's vision of an event that draws media attention needs to be looked at. You gotta think there is a lot of media potential for the non-sailors to have a david and golliath kind of race within the race too. If you are selling Video to sailors in the US the attendance is pretty limited. To really gain viewership and hence exposure there has to be some reason for non sailors to watch. Like it or not this will probably result in some of the sailors having to bend their ideas on what the race is about.
I watched some car rally event on TV last night where they talked cosntantly about the structure of the event being about and around the coverage being what made the event sucessfull. They had enough in it, that they even loaded all the cars up and flew them to China for 1 leg of the race. After watchin the special i still could not tell you what the rules for the race were and I could give a crap about cars or car racing, but I watched and was interested because of how it was produced. (Lots of party and scantily clad women helped also)

My thoughts.

M

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: pgp] #178816
05/19/09 07:46 AM
05/19/09 07:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

My interest would be in adding color to the overall event. I've no interest in trying to compete with anyone in open water. Karl's comment about how gorgeous the water is peeked my interest and I'm sure he was refering to the 1st leg.



Well, by means go for it (or have someone else) do it. In medium conditions it will fine. It is the rough stuff that will wear you out. However, if anyone has the physique and more importantly the mental stamina for that, then the (newest) F16 boats will be about as good as the F18's. I refer to the newest boats as the first generation F16's did lack some dive resistance in rough conditions by comparison. The VIper, Aussie Blade and the new Falcon has solved that together with the first generation of Stealths (T-foils).


And Matt, if anybody can do it on a F16 then you'll by at the top of that list. You handled the conditions at the GC2007 and the subsequent NAM-REM race quite admirably. I envison a normal to bad Tybee 500 to be about 20 times the length of the NAM-REM race we had that year.


But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/19/09 07:55 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Wouter] #178817
05/19/09 07:52 AM
05/19/09 07:52 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's


Someone check downstairs. I think it hath frozen over!
laugh

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #178820
05/19/09 07:57 AM
05/19/09 07:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Hey, How do you like the NEW wouter so far ?

Wouter grin


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #178821
05/19/09 07:59 AM
05/19/09 07:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's


Someone check downstairs. I think it hath frozen over!
laugh


Now that IS funny......


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Wouter] #178822
05/19/09 07:59 AM
05/19/09 07:59 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Off to a good start. :P

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Wouter] #178827
05/19/09 08:14 AM
05/19/09 08:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter


Hey, How do you like the NEW wouter so far ?

Wouter grin

the NEW Wouter,
I'm not sure if you got castrated or grew a pair, but so far I've agreed with most of what you had to say. I'm now loading my .45 to eat a hollowpoint.What's the world coming to.
The big question to see if you've really changed.
What do you think of Sam Evans?
Tawd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: pgp] #178828
05/19/09 08:14 AM
05/19/09 08:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 48
Ocean Springs, MS
Wing nut Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Do you think that would include F16s!? Seriously, I'd be interested in doing the first leg, maybe the second.


Pgp,

If you want to give distance racing a try maybe you should consider the Round the Island race at FWYC in June. It is a race around Santa Rosa Island the Island is approx 44mi long the race ends up being about 100miles. They start in the bay near FWYC at 7:00 am go out the Desting pass, sail east to west to the Pensacola pass back into the ICW and return to FWYC. It is open to all multi hulls 16' and larger. There will be everything from H16's to large tri's racing. It is common for the slower non spin boats to take 24 hours to complete this race.


Andrew
"I'm a luffer not a footer"
NACRA F17 #136
HOBIE 18 MAGNUM #22
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #178829
05/19/09 08:15 AM
05/19/09 08:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Wouter


Hey, How do you like the NEW wouter so far ?

Wouter grin

the NEW Wouter,
I'm not sure if you got castrated or grew a pair, but so far I've agreed with most of what you had to say. I'm now loading my .45 to eat a hollowpoint.What's the world coming to.
The big question to see if you've really changed.
What do you think of Sam Evans?
Tawd


I can hear the clink, thunk...thunk...thunk... as the grenade hits the floor. Why you gotta go there?


Jake Kohl
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #178831
05/19/09 08:16 AM
05/19/09 08:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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As far as F-16 in the Tybee pitch it to Chuck. 5 boats and CHECKS goes along way with any race organizer.He'll need a new group of boats if the 20s don't come back.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Wouter] #178832
05/19/09 08:17 AM
05/19/09 08:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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And it's not just been in this thread and I like this new guy. Where is Wouter and what have done with the body?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #178837
05/19/09 08:21 AM
05/19/09 08:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's


Someone check downstairs. I think it hath frozen over!
laugh


Hath, or Hoth? Unless global warming has ramped up on Hoth I think we're ok. smile

Pete- you'd f-ing die on an F16 if it got rough. If I were the organizers I wouldn't allow a single hand boat, and you'll get pounded to death with two people on a short platform.

I'm not a huge fan of handicap racing. To my way of thinking it should be a run what ya brung kind of format. If boat "A" slides across the finish line first, boat "A" should be the winner of that race/leg, not boat "J" that finished however much later, but won because it has a different rating. I can't say whether or not this would invite more people to the Tybee, or if its even a good idea to bring more people to the Tybee. The last thing you want is people like me out there clutching to half a boat and needing rescue, just because they brought the wrong tool for the job. you want honest competitiors, not people doing it just for fun if it. Competitors prepare better

[disclaimer]Karl B. has not done any distance racing, does not intend to do any real distance racing, and is potentially talking out his butt[/disclaimer] whistle

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Wing nut] #178845
05/19/09 09:03 AM
05/19/09 09:03 AM
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I'm coming up for Juana's in September, but can't get up there this summer. All out of kitchen passes for awhile.

I'll surely do Juana's short (25 miles?) race and try to get over to Hiram's Haul next time.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: KevinRejda] #178846
05/19/09 09:03 AM
05/19/09 09:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Sorry Kevin.... I just picked your post to comment on because you were reporting people's point of view ... of i am not racing against X. (as opposed to one of the participants who is knee deep in the drama)

It doesn't really matter if you think you are racing the smaller boat... He is certainly racing you on the larger boat... Now you can keep score or don't keep score... but human nature will focus on the difference... and the little boat beating the big boat will be noticed and discussed.

This debate was argued 3 or 4 months ago... The one design proponents (no... I am not racing the F18... keep that handicap stuff far away from the pristine race that is the Tybee versus me... score it on handicap and all ways but Sunday.... Euro style (for lack of a better word).

What happened?...
The end result was ONE RACE, scored on handicap AND two Races in one design F18 and N20. Pretending that no racing existed between the two fleets or between the sailors in each area of the pecking order is just silly and the OA saw this. Matt M makes my point in a more polite manner.

My position is consistent... The racing scene in the US is at a tipping point in most regions of the country. Hell,the Tybee race is seemingly in doubt again.

Competition and passing boats is a fundamental element of sailboat racing. In any OD fleet you have a big range of skills and the pecking order doesn't change much... When it gets small.... it dies. So IMO, You need to make sure that these elements are in every race we run. Racing on handicap is not perfect but it gives the top guys somebody else to race against and so on down the pecking orders. When you can get 20 to 30 boats on the line...event after event it's a different story.

Either we recognize the reality or we watch race after race crater.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Mark Schneider] #178847
05/19/09 09:10 AM
05/19/09 09:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Sorry Kevin.... I just picked your post to comment on because you were reporting people's point of view ... of i am not racing against X. (as opposed to one of the participants who is knee deep in the drama)

It doesn't really matter if you think you are racing the smaller boat... He is certainly racing you on the larger boat... Now you can keep score or don't keep score... but human nature will focus on the difference... and the little boat beating the big boat will be noticed and discussed.

This debate was argued 3 or 4 months ago... The one design proponents (no... I am not racing the F18... keep that handicap stuff far away from the pristine race that is the Tybee versus me... score it on handicap and all ways but Sunday.... Euro style (for lack of a better word).

What happened?...
The end result was ONE RACE, scored on handicap AND two Races in one design F18 and N20. Pretending that no racing existed between the two fleets or between the sailors in each area of the pecking order is just silly and the OA saw this. Matt M makes my point in a more polite manner.

My position is consistent... The racing scene in the US is at a tipping point in most regions of the country. Hell,the Tybee race is seemingly in doubt again.

Competition and passing boats is a fundamental element of sailboat racing. In any OD fleet you have a big range of skills and the pecking order doesn't change much... When it gets small.... it dies. So IMO, You need to make sure that these elements are in every race we run. Racing on handicap is not perfect but it gives the top guys somebody else to race against and so on down the pecking orders. When you can get 20 to 30 boats on the line...event after event it's a different story.

Either we recognize the reality or we watch race after race crater.



If this is the case, why isn't the Steeplechase and Round the Island overun with entries for their handicap distance racing?


Jake Kohl
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Jake] #178848
05/19/09 09:13 AM
05/19/09 09:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
Pretending that no racing existed between the two fleets or between the sailors in each area of the pecking order is just silly and the OA saw this. Matt M makes my point in a more polite manner.


Pretending that you know what the kiss you're talking about when you weren't even there makes you look like an even bigger e-sailor than you truly are.

Quote
Hell,the Tybee race is seemingly in doubt again.


Because it was SOOOOOO popular when it WAS run on open handicap. Please.

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Mark Schneider] #178849
05/19/09 09:14 AM
05/19/09 09:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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****. I can't speak for the F-18s, they were probably in giant slayer mode racing us as hard as they could to try to prove a point.I ignored them from a competitive standpoint but did try to use them for reference. The conditions this year made us like apples and oranges.It could be that way anytime but this was a test.
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #178850
05/19/09 09:22 AM
05/19/09 09:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
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brucat Offline
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Mark, you can say it all you want, but you can't MAKE us like handicap racing. There are those of us who HATE it, or will only tolerate it for 1-2 races a year. Why can't you accept that and work to promote racing of all types rather than shove this crap down our throats in every thread you come across?

37 Hobie 16As at Madcatter. Nuff said.

Mike

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