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Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #180683
06/02/09 07:23 PM
06/02/09 07:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Originally Posted by mmiller
Not really sure what your objective here is. This isn't even your racing class. You still race 16s, you want to open up the H16 class too? I don't think you would get many takers on that idea.

Look... Hobie Cat and the HCA had offered a solution... an exception to allow IWCA boats at Havamega. If they didn't want to play, thats their choice.


Iíve sporadically put quite a bit of time into this issue over the years. Iíve done this because the HCA saw a benefit from having a partnership with the Wave class. Itís apparent that the HCA still thinks this is a good idea and so I was really disappointed to hear about how the entire thing was stymied. I want this to work because it would be good for the HCA and the HCA wants it. Thatís my motivation.
Itís also very disappointing to see the manufacturer exert undue pressure on a class decision.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: rhodysail] #180684
06/02/09 07:29 PM
06/02/09 07:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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Quote
Itís also very disappointing to see the manufacturer exert undue pressure on a class decision.


Did you not read that Brookes was the one to identify the "problem" .

Did you not read the part about the exception?

Hardly undue pressure by the Manufacturer. Common sense guidance maybe.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #180685
06/02/09 07:36 PM
06/02/09 07:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Originally Posted by mmiller
Quote
Itís also very disappointing to see the manufacturer exert undue pressure on a class decision.


Did you not read that Brookes was the one to identify the "problem" .

Did you not read the part about the exception?

Hardly undue pressure by the Manufacturer. Common sense guidance maybe.


yea I read your post but I've seen this movie before

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: rhodysail] #180686
06/02/09 07:40 PM
06/02/09 07:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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Originally Posted by rhodysail
I've seen this movie before


As have I... it gets REALLY old.


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Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #180687
06/02/09 07:45 PM
06/02/09 07:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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I agree. Way old.
So letís break the mold. Be bold. Do something different. Take a little risk. Try a new way.
Who knows it just may work out.


...just a thought

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: rhodysail] #180690
06/02/09 07:52 PM
06/02/09 07:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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Whats more bold than saying... bring 'em on. Thats what we did.

As far as I'm concerned, that can still happen. But (in the words of GW Bush) I'm not the decider.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #180693
06/02/09 08:22 PM
06/02/09 08:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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I just realized what a loop this thing has been on. Matt Bounds had explained the whole thing in his first reply to this thread. 1st page.


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Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: SurfCityRacing] #180705
06/02/09 09:48 PM
06/02/09 09:48 PM

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xanderwess
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xanderwess
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Where it derailed is that Gordon and I talked at length abouit the 'exceptions' (which was a fair compromise, no question) and decided between us that we'd rather not go to the trouble to get IHCA rules committees and others involved in what we didn't feel would be a long term solution and having to deal with with it sooner than later seemed a better course of action for us. 15 pages later, I still think we were right to stop the train there. Who knows how many ruffled feathers there would be if we would have had to do this AFTER a successful HavaMega.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #180707
06/02/09 09:59 PM
06/02/09 09:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 454
Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
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Tom Korz Offline
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15 pages over the wave.....mmmmnnn Tiger , Wildcat , F-18....we had it figured out in 2001 but.... ah well..

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves...Sooo, with the Waves decided [Re: Tom Korz] #180715
06/02/09 11:45 PM
06/02/09 11:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 364
Andrew Offline
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...When do we get to start racing the Adventure Islands? It's a one-design sailing multihull...


Andrew Tatton Nacra 20 "Wiggle Stick" #266 Nacra 18 Square #12
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #180720
06/03/09 03:29 AM
06/03/09 03:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 912
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Originally Posted by mmiller
Quote
Keep the words "Hobie Tiger" in the front of your mind and read the above post again !


Don't follow you.

The Tiger conforms to ISAF rules as a one design. Any rule changes are presented by the IHCA to ISAF for approval.

The IWCA has no such process or international standing / status.

My point is that, when it suited Hobie, there were many changes made to the spec of the original "One Design" Tiger. I remember hearing that ISAF were perturbed at the many changes to a "One Design".


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Dermot] #180721
06/03/09 05:32 AM
06/03/09 05:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I too am miffed by the way things seemed to have gone down. Indeed, neither I have a horse in this race but I too think some people are really missing the plot in today's catamaran scene. Selling to resorts is great, but sticking to SMOD like a religious dogma is really no recepy for succees these days. Opening up the sail plan (within size rules) is actually a very smart move for a class like the waves. Jake is right, a 95 sq. ft. aftermarket mainsail is not going to break the bank and the racing will only become more fair with it as the competitive range will be entlarged.

I too see a clear example in the history of the Hobie Tiger. Especially when compared to another new Hobie class like the FX-one (or non-F20 optimized Hobie Fox).

And other then that; since when do we regard an ISAF seal of approval as a positive thing ?

Those guys have lost the plot almost as much as the SMOD fanatics.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/03/09 05:39 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Wouter] #180769
06/03/09 11:42 AM
06/03/09 11:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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While it would be fun to argue with you Wouter (fun as in, after I take this hot poker out of my eye), that's just another tangent from this thread.

I stand by what I've already posted. Regardless of how we got here, the first goal now needs to be to have everyone show up and race, to show that they care about growing the Wave as a racing class within HCA. HCA, HCC, IWCA (and others) should work together to help make that a reality.

Everything else is political agenda, and I think we're all getting very tired of it.

Mike

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: brucat] #180791
06/03/09 01:46 PM
06/03/09 01:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

I stand by what I've already posted. Regardless of how we got here, the first goal now needs to be to have everyone show up and race, to show that they care about growing the Wave as a racing class within HCA. HCA, HCC, IWCA (and others) should work together to help make that a reality.



So basically you are saying that everybody, incl. the IWCA, should work towards having everybody adhere to the HCA position.

As in everybody is welcomed to negociate a solution to the situation under the criterium that the end result is the position exemplified by HCA.

Why don't you just ask the IWCA and god know who else to commit suicide as well ?

Quote

Everything else is political agenda, and I think we're all getting very tired of it.


Now that is a true statement. But you shouldn't confuse your own position as being the high road.


But what do I care, it is no skin of my nose.

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Wouter] #180793
06/03/09 02:03 PM
06/03/09 02:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
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A question for IWCA members and Hobie Cat.
If Hobie offered 3 wave sails, Standard, Full , Flat would the Iwca racers buy them or still want aftermarket manufactures?
Could Hobie build fuller and/or flatter sails as per customer request for the wave?
How would that influence cost?
Would Hobie be willing to "Grandfather" current IWCA aftermarket sails If they measured out correctly.

Then those with aftermarket sails would be able to keep racing, Hobie would get future sales in the sails. The two classes would be closer to making peace and getting more people to sail regattas on the waves.

I'm trying to be constructive here so if you have a negative comment for me about this please do it in PM or E-mail.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Wouter] #180800
06/03/09 02:33 PM
06/03/09 02:33 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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A



Originally Posted by Wouter
Why don't you just ask the IWCA and god know who else to commit suicide as well ?

[quote=Wouter]
Now that is a true statement. But you shouldn't confuse your own position as being the high road.
But what do I care, it is no skin of my nose.
Wouter


Those are rather strontg statments for someone who doesn't care.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #180804
06/03/09 02:57 PM
06/03/09 02:57 PM

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xanderwess
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xanderwess
Unregistered
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Hobie18rich: That is another question I asked (altough I referred to them as a Papa, Mama and Baby Bear sails) when I was talking to the boys on the board,but that whole dilution of class thing came up again.
It was explained to me in the beginning that getting a sail for the Wave should be like buying a running shoe. You need to be fitted, bascially. Depending on weight, sailing ability and desire, as long as they conformed to the perimeter measurements, sail cloth thickness and materials. Makes sense when someone who really believes in it explains it to you.

Last edited by xanderwess; 06/03/09 03:01 PM.
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #180809
06/03/09 03:14 PM
06/03/09 03:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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What we have is an event with posted rules. How we got here needs to be irrelevant, if we are to build it to a sucess. That is the high road that needs to be taken.

What happens next in terms of long-term rules, etc. should be a separate issue, but for anyone to be taken seriously, showing up would be a good first step.

As for the IWCA vs IHCA Wave rules, I have watched this for a long, long, long time (since its inception, actually). The main point put forward originally by IWCA (published in Catsailor) was that SMOD sails cost more, that's why IWCA wanted to be able to use multiple sail makers. Now, it's gone down the road of making the sail fit your personal style, which gives ammunition to the IHCA SMOD position, as this has the potential to be viewed as an arms race.

Still, none of that matters for this event. If people choose not to show up, they simply will not have much political pull in the future. When you show up with lots of boats, you'll start getting attention. Who knows, when the good Wave sailors win with factory sails, this whole debate might just go the way of the dodo...

Mike

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: brucat] #180817
06/03/09 04:05 PM
06/03/09 04:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Mike/Brucat???

Let me see if I understand your statement correctly ......

So the IWCA doesn't want to follow "SMOD" as they have found that the IWCA sailors can purchase sails cheaper from Independent Sailmakers ...... and have also discovered that customized cuts for their wieght/sailing style seems to "level" the playing field while "measuring in" in terms of square area.

Hmmmmmm ........

So I'm expected to pay extra $$$$'s for a product from a manufacture that doesn't meet my needs while there is a manufacture that will make a product thats cheaper, improves the racing, and does meets my needs ... just so I can claim "SMOD".

I thought "SMOD" was to lead to cheaper, more cost effective racing/sailing ..... I'm really confused now .....

Harry Murphey

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: HMurphey] #180818
06/03/09 04:18 PM
06/03/09 04:18 PM

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xanderwess
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xanderwess
Unregistered
X



I am pretty sure I am one of maybe 3 Wave owners in this whole conversation.......funny don't you think?

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