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Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #180821
06/03/09 04:26 PM
06/03/09 04:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by xanderwess
I am pretty sure I am one of maybe 3 Wave owners in this whole conversation.......funny don't you think?


Sounds like you want to keep it that way.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: brucat] #180822
06/03/09 04:30 PM
06/03/09 04:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Wilmington,NC
Brucat,

I think you have it all wrong, having a sail made to fit your weight opens the class up to more sailors and you get better less expensive sails. The a cats do this and it works for them. The F18 class has some of the best sails and better priced than the oem sails (not one F18 had sail issues in the Tybee like the N20 did with the oem sails.

Hobie Cat should not be involved in any of the rules and should not be involved in the racing members class. Hobie would care more about boat and part sales than the racing class. The A cats, F16, F18 are all doing well with out manufactures telling them what to do.

Since Hobie went Hobie only in division 9 most dealers have gone under and I have not seen any new Hobie's racing just A cats, F18s, F16s, N20 and some older Hobie cats and all boats are welcome. Most of us did sail Hobie's they just don't make boats that fit our needs anymore.

The one problem I have with being a Hobie class member is you really don't get to vote on upper management only your division chair and they don't put major issues to membership vote. If the IWCA sailors come to the event it won't change the IHCA minds. Going to the event with the IHCA rules would just show that the IHCA does not need to change. The IWCA should just keep doing what they are doing because it is working for them and they are building there class. If the IWCA wants to convert to the IHCA rules they should put it to a class vote. The classes should be about the sailors and having equal, fun, competitive, affordable and not a arms race. Hobie will say they have that but I think you could buy a lot of parts that did not change the performance of the boats a lot cheaper than having to buy from HC.

Someone in this thread wanted facts on what the Hobie only rule has done. The boats I have owned new 1985 H16, used 1989 TheMightyHobie18, used 1997 TheMightyHobie18, used H17, new 01 Nacra I20, new 2002 Tiger. Hobie only rule all new 05 Nacra F18, 06 Infusion, 07 Infusion, 09 Infusion. Hobie lost all my business that's around 67,000 spent on Nacra's and I am just one sailor.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: HMurphey] #180824
06/03/09 04:38 PM
06/03/09 04:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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SurfCityRacing  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Originally Posted by HMurphey
Mike/Brucat???
So the IWCA doesn't want to follow "SMOD" as they have found that the IWCA sailors can purchase sails cheaper from Independent Sailmakers ......


Hobie stock main white list =$812

Calvert wave main list =$900
Tri-radial Pentex add $352 = $1252
Load path add $407 = $1307

Quote

So I'm expected to pay extra $$$$'s for a product from a manufacture that doesn't meet my needs...

Harry Murphey


No, you wouldn't be expected to pay more. Why would you buy a WAVE Main anyway... for your 18? That wouldn't make sense Harry. I think you'd be a little underpowered grin

J

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: SurfCityRacing] #180827
06/03/09 05:03 PM
06/03/09 05:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
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Rhino1302  Offline
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R

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Posts: 308
Reno NV
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
Originally Posted by HMurphey
Mike/Brucat???
So the IWCA doesn't want to follow "SMOD" as they have found that the IWCA sailors can purchase sails cheaper from Independent Sailmakers ......


Hobie stock main white list =$812

Calvert wave main list =$900
Tri-radial Pentex add $352 = $1252
Load path add $407 = $1307

Quote

So I'm expected to pay extra $$$$'s for a product from a manufacture that doesn't meet my needs...

Harry Murphey


No, you wouldn't be expected to pay more. Why would you buy a WAVE Main anyway... for your 18? That wouldn't make sense Harry. I think you'd be a little underpowered grin

J


In ten seconds of google searching I found a Wave main from a respectable loft for less than the Hobie stock sail.

The Calvert might be a little more, but I'm willing to bet the difference in price it's a whole lot better value than the stock sail. And it's probably made in the US instead of by slave-labor in Malaysia or wherever.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Rhino1302] #180828
06/03/09 05:09 PM
06/03/09 05:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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SurfCityRacing  Offline
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Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Originally Posted by Rhino1302

In ten seconds of google searching I found a Wave main from a respectable loft for less than the Hobie stock sail.

The Calvert might be a little more, but I'm willing to bet the difference in price it's a whole lot better value than the stock sail. And it's probably made in the US instead of by slave-labor in Malaysia or wherever.


The mains that I quoted are on a website affiliated with the IWCA.

And if you want to support labor in the U.S. All Hobie rotomolded boats (sail/ kayaks) and sails (other than euro boats) are made here in the U.S. There used to be about 20 boat manufacturers here in CA, Catalina, Cal, Capitol Yachts, Hobie, Performance, etc. Now there are only about 3.

J

Last edited by SurfCityRacing; 06/03/09 05:14 PM.
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: SurfCityRacing] #180833
06/03/09 05:51 PM
06/03/09 05:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Hobie USA builds the sail right here in Oceanside California. Yes, Made in the USA.

I do know that a few of the "custom" sailmakers send their digital patterns to over seas lofts for production.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #180836
06/03/09 06:06 PM
06/03/09 06:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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H17cat  Offline
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Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
We purchased three new Factory Wave sails last year. They are excellent, well made, teflon bolt ropes etc. During the season our six Waves are on the water about 12 hours a day, seven days a week. Very rough use with young sailors. So far, the stock sails have lasted at least four years, with some minimum maintenance.
Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point, Seattle


Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #180838
06/03/09 06:09 PM
06/03/09 06:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
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Rhino1302  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
Originally Posted by mmiller
Hobie USA builds the sail right here in Oceanside California. Yes, Made in the USA.

I do know that a few of the "custom" sailmakers send their digital patterns to over seas lofts for production.


Thanks for the correction. I guess I should know better than to repeat hearsay.

The Calvert sails I've owned were built in the US, and of equivalent price but much better quality than class legal sails. I would be surprised if that doesn't hold true for the Wave.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Rhino1302] #180839
06/03/09 06:14 PM
06/03/09 06:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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California
Originally Posted by Rhino1302
equivalent price but much better quality than class legal sails. I would be surprised if that doesn't hold true for the Wave.


What Class?

Quite honestly... hard to beat the Hobie Factory quality. I suspect you are referring to another manufacturer.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Robi] #180846
06/03/09 07:30 PM
06/03/09 07:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9
G
Gordo Offline
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Gordo  Offline
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The latter part of this thread appears to be a debate about HCC factory sails against other lofts, rather than the original discussion, which some might object to, but it kind of gets to the heart of the IWCA vs. IHCA question. That's OK I guess, but it makes me realize how sweet a deal it is to be in a strict one-design format. My experience with strict One-Design is that it inspires humility, challenges in a very pure fashion a skippers technical and tactical skills on the course. I also like that I can stiff my H16 up, have a new set of sails, and be very competitive. Even better, I'm finding that the skippers that bought new boats this year are about in the same place on the course around me as they have been in the past, even though my boat is 4 years old and has been showing signs of fatigue for a couple of years. Also, I've observed that in this sport you have lots of different types of cat sailors --recreational, OD racing, Portsmouth racing and hotshots who want the fastest thing they can find, etc., etc. In racing, I find the most respect and commaraderie amongst the OD racers, and the reward of finishing well far more rewarding. Nevertheless, in every way I think that, in general, catamaran sailing is the best place to be. A really great group of people. Thanks for the fun!

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #180856
06/03/09 11:33 PM
06/03/09 11:33 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



That was kind on an butt hole thing to say. Why would you say that? Why would you think that? Or are you just flaming me to get me say something controversial? You should give me a call catfever guy, I would like that. Maybe I am missing your meaning. Maybe not.

Last edited by xanderwess; 06/03/09 11:37 PM.
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #180876
06/04/09 07:32 AM
06/04/09 07:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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pbisesi  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
Time to break it out
[Linked Image]

Would someone please show me documentation of when the HCA, in any of it's forms, ever allowed any thing but a Hobie to sail at it's events. This "Edict" thing drives me nuts.

I would like to see if the sails really make any difference.
It would be nice to have ten boats with stock sails race a week long event against ten boats that fit the wave class rules and see where the chips fall.
My gut tells me that the better sailor will do better and not the custom sail.

I have raced my 72 H14 with old sails way, way, way over weight and done ok.
I race the H16 way over weight and do ok.
I have a 1984 H16 with bad sails and a bent mast and regularly beat brand new boats at our club races.(did I mention I was way over weight?)
Have I mentioned the nut on the tiller lately?


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: pbisesi] #180889
06/04/09 08:34 AM
06/04/09 08:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
I can't provide you documentation but I can tell you for a fact that there were at least two Hobie MidWinters East regattas that had an open class that included boats that were NOT Hobies (I was there). I started sailing multi's (TheMightyHobie18) in 95 and the 'X' boats (as they were referred to by the NAHCA) were allowed to sail at our points regattas. Once the "Hobie Edict" was announced Division 8 pretty much went away. The Hobie MidWinters East regatta still happens but thatís pretty much it for Hobie only regattas in division 8.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: David Ingram] #180890
06/04/09 08:42 AM
06/04/09 08:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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dave mosley  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
Div 9 had "X" brand boats since at least 1990 when I started racing, but Im sure before that also. When I joined, there was already a fleet of 18 Sq's, prindle 19's, and a NACRA 5.8 sailing(in Charlotte). I began racing the circuit around the Carolina's and was never turned away on my 1976 5.2, as a matter of fact, I was welcomed with open arms and alot of help from all the sailors. I sucked, but still had fun because of the people who WELCOMED me.
If you or your fleet were turning away "X" boats at that time, Im glad I didnt travel up there to be unwelcome.
Now do you see how this "edict" impacts us non Hobie people?

We are all catamaran people, we should not be brand loyal people, nor should we follow rules of exclusitivity. If you want "cat sailing" to die, keep on excluding boats and practicing SMOD practices.

MHO

Last edited by dave mosley; 06/04/09 08:46 AM.

The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: dave mosley] #180898
06/04/09 09:12 AM
06/04/09 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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tami  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
Originally Posted by dave mosley

Now do you see how this "edict" impacts us non Hobie people?


I'd like to correct that. The 'edict' in the central Gulf didn't just impact non-Hobie sailors. In fact, that's one of the main reasons why the Texas guys (at least in the southern half of TX) separated. That's also why there aren't any Hobie points regattas central Gulf. In fact, although at the HCA they may be listing 'fleets' in the central Gulf, but except for whatever Brad at Sunjammers might be doing, these 'fleets' in actuality do NOT EXIST. (well, Ken Altman and a few guys at Singing River YC are beginning to scratch something up, but we're talking something like seven people.)

There just aren't enough Hobie sailors down here that they can justify excluding anyone. EVERYONE would lose out. In this part of the world, Hobie only regattas can't garner enough entrants to pay for themselves. Down here, regattas HAVE to be inclusive or they can't hold up.

And I don't see anyone round here running madly to buy Hobies, either. Nor would they, even with exclusivity - that would just piss people off and run them off the brand, as it has done. Racing around here has and continues to be open fleet, friendly, run whatcha brung affairs.


Here's the charter for the TCDYC guys, for instance:
"TCDYC Charter and Bylaws
Bylaws

The TCDYC Agrees to no laws and follows the wind in all matters
We are of the view that sailing is a matter of personal choice and a way of life
We intend that all persons should sail catamarans and we invite them to be with us when we do
We will speak to our members and friends in a respectful manner at all times
We will take actions that promote sailing catamarans and will avoid any actions that are prohibited on the beach
We do not collect dues or any money that is not freely given for the enjoyment of the sport
We will individually do what it takes to make sailing at the dike enjoyable and safe for all persons on the beach
We are mindful of the diverse group of attitudes and personalities that comprise TCDYC and its guests. At all times we commit to them and ourselves that we will act respectfully and honorably towards anyone on the beach
We are a unified group with the ability to sail safe and contribute to an enjoyable environment for everyone on the beach


Charter

To build a Yacht club that inspires its members to fulfill their dreams and participate in the possibilities of life.
To be examples of freedom and full self expression in the community
To create a lasting structure for future sailors to follow their desires to be one with the wind and the water"

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: pbisesi] #180899
06/04/09 09:14 AM
06/04/09 09:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Pat, you are focusing on the broken record crap but losing sight of the big picture.

Everyone agrees on the need to convert recreational sailors into novice racing sailors for the sport of catamaran racing to keep going... and the question is how?

Everyone agrees's that most of the recreational sailors are now getting rotomolded boats like Waves and Getaways.... and the question is how to enroll these guys in yacht clubs and fleets since they are not finding us now and asking to join. (They probably don't feel welcome. ie... they don't fit in with higher performance cats and sailors)

Everyone agrees that this group is one of the targets to get going racing in our Yacht Clubs and fleets. We also HOPE these guys will feed the H16 class and beyond...but just racing Waves will be just fine as well.

But, There are no IHCA wave sailors who go racing... (5 raced a regatta last year).... So, just inviting Hobie Waves to Hobie Regattas is not working. Bottom line..There is no IWCA Wave Class ..... There are just some rules on paper dictated by somebody somewhere.

The IWCA Wave racers were experienced racers who dropped back to the Wave, created a class along OD principles, and are keeping it going as a real OD class of individuals who sail the boat under a rule set they agree on. They HAVE attracted non racers into the class and are getting the boat to be an entry racing boat.... Your standard stock WAVE can join in and race and fit right into the class.

The IWCA model is to have experienced racers lead the class and set a standard for racing. They try to have events where recreational sailors will see them and they try to get the Newbies out racing. The experienced guys make the newbies feel welcome. The tend to run Wave only regattas on courses that the WAVES like ... not the W L courses that racers demand.

Bob Merrick's question is the right one... OK... Somebody does't like the IWCA deal.... What's the solution.... You can't blow up the IWCA deal and do nothing.

The IHCA class model for growing the Wave as an entry level race boat has been operating for several years (according to the paperwork) ... Last Year.. it got 5 boats to go racing. What ever the plan was... it's clearly not working

What is the NEW PLAN? Who is leading it and how does it fit in with Hobie points regattas. That is the big picture!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Mark Schneider] #180909
06/04/09 10:16 AM
06/04/09 10:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
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Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
There is no IWCA Wave Class ..... There are just some rules on paper dictated by somebody somewhere.

Mark, I think maybe that is a typo and was supposed to say, "no IHCA Wave Class..."

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: dave mosley] #180911
06/04/09 10:29 AM
06/04/09 10:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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HMurphey  Offline
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Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Pat,

I know you are familiar w/ Div11 and Fleet 54 for example ... but as you are mainly a H16 sailor you may have missed the "Open" Classes

For years there where "Open" Classes at several Hobie Events in Div11 .... these were started because we had fleet members w/ H21SE's, H18Mag, H18SX's, H14 Turbos etc, and were trying to develope friendly compitition and maybe convert some to buying Hobie Products. So we had a "Open Class" so these non-sanctioned boats could come out and play. At one point we had +15 boats competing in "Open" Class on non-HCA-NA sanctioned Hobies and boats produced by other manufacture's. We were all friends and were have alot of fun together. But the inconsistent quality of boat construction and sails by Hobie was undermining our efforts .... then came the infamous IHCA's "Hobie Edict". A Rule never discussed/voted/approved by the local rank & file sailors but instead forced down the throats of the local organizers by the (6) IHCA members that the majority of directly recieve their income (ie:rice bowl) from the Hobie Company/Organizations themselves. Please note that in Div's (north to south) 12, 9, 8, 15, 6 and 10 the "Edicts" effect has been devastating ... literly destroying the local catamaran sailing scene .... splitting long term friendships and making regattas un-sustainable. All these divisions collapsed and many others lost significate numbers of members. Now you do not need to believe me ... just take a look at the numbers from before the IHCA's "Hobie Edict" and after, the proof is there , if you wish to put aside your "Hobie Brand Loyalty" and actually reconize the numbers/trends.

And there is a another side effect .... Most of the "Open" Class Catamarans have joined local yacht clubs ... the "Hobie Sailors" have not. The "buzz" out of California and other places, is that the invitations to "Hobie Catters" will soon end if the YC's don't see increased membership and participation in the YC's. Take my example .... I joined a local YC 3 years ago, I cut the grass weekly, I volunteered to be on the RC for 4-5 events last year alone, and I help organize and cooked a "Homemade Meatball and Spagetti Diner for the Junior Sailing School that served 106 plates and raised approximently $+800.00 between contributions and dinner fees.

Now my YC host's two events/year that cat sailors participate in ... The Annual One-Design that has this year a H14 Class Start, A-Cat Class Start and a "Open" Class ... then there is the Hobie Points Regatta in September ..... and here is the real kicker .... I AM THE ONLY ACTIVE BEACH CAT SAILOR AT THE CLUB !!!!!! I work all spring/summer/fall at various duties so the YC agrees to host these events ... sacrificing my attendence at other events so these events happen. And the "Hobie Only" Edict is not helping .... on any level as it is promoting seperatism/elitism among the catamaran classes (just so a few can keep their jobs????)

(And I do not know how much longer I can convience the Club to host two seperate Regatta's for beach cats as they do not understand the reasoning and consider ALL "Beach Catters" to be from the "Dark Side".)

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18(mag)/ Fleet 54, Div11
P19MX/ CRAC, "Open" Class

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Mary] #180912
06/04/09 10:41 AM
06/04/09 10:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
The point is:
The HCA has bylaws and Fleets have charters. The bylaws have never allowed anything but Hobies at events.
Each fleet can have a commodore and each division has a chairman.
If you want something changed in the association then get it on the agenda to be discussed and voted on at the annual meetings.
Things should not be changed at the whim of any one person or small group.
I haven't met anyone yet that believes their ideas are bad. Everyone thinks their way is the best.

If NAMSA or the NACRA association want to amend their bylaws don't they go through a similar process?

I believe that the HCA should be looking at the F18 issue and also the Wave issues.
I have also discussed allowing fleets to invite other one design classes(ie Sharks ) to attend our regattas as guests.
My head is not in the sand, but there is a process to make changes.
If the issues are brought to the table and the division reps vote them down,then try again next year or work with another group as some have done.


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: pbisesi] #180913
06/04/09 11:07 AM
06/04/09 11:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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HMurphey  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Ok Pat,

When do we ... the rank and file HCA-NA members get to vote on the members forming the IHCA ... Give me a date!!!!!!

There is none, as these 6 people will not allow it to happen .... ever!!!!!!

That is why you argument/position is pure BULLSH-T, respectfully sir.

The HCA-NA will never be able to direct it's future as long as the IHCA can VETO any decision made by the HCA-NA officals that are at least appointed by Division deligates ... who are elected by the members themselves

Harry Murphey

PS: I truely wish you can prove me in-correct .... but in my +25yrs of Hobiedom there has never been an IHCA election that I'm aware of ..... Good Luck on changing the IHCA ... I've given up and will not even petition the IHCA for some minor rules changes for the TheMightyHobie18 Class ..... it's just a waste of my time.

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