Announcements
New Discussions
going downhill with my body leads to cat adaption
by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
The media IS the Democraptic party!
by H17cat. 03/04/20 06:33 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rating: 5
Hop To
Page 12 of 18 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 17 18
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: arbo06] #181032
06/04/09 10:29 PM
06/04/09 10:29 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



Mark, you can look at it however you want. I have a responsibility to my org, and that's as far as I go with it. If you feel I have made a fundamental mistake, I am sorry for that, but I plan on doing what it is that I do, and more of it. We have a good/great thing going, and always have and if I ever become part of some other form of sailing organization, then I'll do what I do for them. Until then, I don't think I am out of line by trying to solicite Hobie Sailors in less active areas to help organize Hobie events. You go on and do what you do, and I'll critique it for you later.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: arbo06] #181036
06/05/09 01:04 AM
06/05/09 01:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by arbo06
Happy Hour cures many ills.

Root cause issues can be revealed by happy hour, in my experience.

Where do you want to meet? ;-} Las Vegas? Maybe?

[Linked Image]


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #181051
06/05/09 06:43 AM
06/05/09 06:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by xanderwess
Jeez, here we go again. I am lookig for a few people to get 'Hobie' fleets going in those areas. There is someone else (I would think) to get the other manufacturers or just Catamaran fleets in general going. Please don't give me a bunch of **** for doing the job I was asked to do. You might note the tone of that request was pretty light too......no need to bring my post over here from the Hobie forum and throw a dark cloud over it.
Dick is our PRO and the Viking is our divisions main boat.

Xan,Bru, Matt, et al ,
What happened to the Hobie fleets that were in those areas?
I'd say David just proved his point in spades, it's a shame no one will listen.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Mark Schneider] #181053
06/05/09 07:15 AM
06/05/09 07:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
addict
tami  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
I don't often understand nor agree with Mark, but he wins the prize here.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
[Chris,

Your fundamental mistake is that you are confusing a Hobie Fleet/Yacht club with the sailors racing one design on a Hobie xx at some YC's/catamaran club event.

If my Yacht Club, offers any group of catamarans a start if they have 5 or more boats... and you start a campaign to pull one of those sailors out and have him start a NEW Yacht Club and then have this Club/Fleet run a race with at least one Hobie in a class = a race.... What do you think the volunteers at the Yacht Club and I would have to say about your efforts?

Now consider the fact that many of these organizations USED to belong to the Hobie universe of yacht clubs before they were forced to choose a different path...

Instead of trying to compete with the existing organizations that make catamaran racing go in the states you mention you should find ways to support those clubs that are vital to cat racing in huge chunks of the country.

... Perhaps you should look for FLEET CAPTAINS who would beat the bushes for Hobie XX's ... organize the troops, and get them to turnout at the YC events in the region and try to make those events as successful as possible.

Respectfully
Mark


Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #181054
06/05/09 07:27 AM
06/05/09 07:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
What happened to the Hobie fleets?
They were not Hobie fleets any more.

When any of us that our members of the HCA join, we do so voluntarily and are expected to follow the bylaws of the group we joined. It's our choice. If you choose a different group, fine.
My fleet has always followed the bylaws that we agreed to abide by. That doesn't mean we don't debate them and sometimes want them changed to keep up with the changing times, we do.
Everyone wants facts and to see results.
Our way of doing things has worked at achieving the results we are after.
You can read Tom's account of our fleet race last night.
If the idea is to get people sailing, including women and youth.
I would bet that there is no catamaran group in the country that is even close to the amount of boats we have put on the line over the last 20 years. Yes they are mostly Hobie 16's, THAT WAS THE PLAN.

Harry, I don't much care what color you paint yourself.
I'm not to quick at the forgive and forget stuff.
To many people think they can do and say what ever they like and think an apology makes it all go away.
I took a few minutes to look over results from Division 11,12 and 16 over the last ten years and can only find your name one time. Last year at Wildwood.
Over the same ten years I have helped run a couple of Nationals, sailed in NAC's on both coasts, the Florida gulf and some corn field in Iowa. shocked
Not to mention many weekend regattas in at least 4 different divisions.
You certainly have a right to your opinions. They would have a bit more merit with a lot more participation.


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: pbisesi] #181057
06/05/09 08:13 AM
06/05/09 08:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
addict
tami  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
Bisesi,

The Syracuse fleet isn't successful because it stuck to a brand. Syracuse is successful because it has dynamic leadership.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: tami] #181058
06/05/09 09:27 AM
06/05/09 09:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
There is a degree of truth to that, Tami. But, I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that the support of the Hobie Cat Company hasn't hurt (intentional, major understatement).

In this case, the importance of the brand, beyond company support, is as Pat alluded to above. It gives everyone a core to hone in onto. While others may be successful at bringing together a bunch of boats to sail on handicap, Hobie fleets choose to focus on bringing together Hobie Cats.

It's hard to argue with their success.

Mike

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: brucat] #181059
06/05/09 09:47 AM
06/05/09 09:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
addict
tami  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
I shall argue, because your paradigm has NOT worked in my neck of the woods, and apparently isn't working in a large part of the country, as is evidenced by Wessels' stepping and fetching to get people to develop fleets.

You see, when the fastest multihull sailors in the country live near you, and NONE of them sail Hobie... well... it's VERY hard to argue with that.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: brucat] #181060
06/05/09 10:03 AM
06/05/09 10:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
Leadership and a lot of volunteers is a given for success.
We really have no way of knowing if the brand made a difference.
I believe it had to help some.

One of my favorite authors is Napoleon Hill. In his 17 principals of success book he discusses a clearly defined definite major purpose as a key to success.
Right or wrong, we have chose to make Hobie's and more specifically the H16 as our definite major purpose.
I feel like we have been successful, others may disagree with our goal, but it's hard to argue with the results.

I enjoy following what is happening with F16,17,18, A cats, waves,N20 and the Tybee race. There is strong leaders in each of those groups.
The trouble with strong leaders is we (ME) are usally single minded and hard headed(guilty) grin (look Chris, I used the face thing)
I hope all the groups promoting those classes and events also find the success they have defined.


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: pbisesi] #181061
06/05/09 10:05 AM
06/05/09 10:05 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



Nice face, Pat.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #181065
06/05/09 10:36 AM
06/05/09 10:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
old hand
NCSUtrey  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
But at what point of trying to further our causes do we realize that the success of our cause comes at the detriment of another cause?

I believe your cause to be mutually exclusive, which it is. By building the Hobie-only fleets, you'll be pulling boats away from EMSA regattas by splitting the fleets. We all have lower turnouts at that point.

By builing the fleet inside EMSA, you can still achieve your goal of larger fleets of Hobies; you'll still have one design fleets and starts (with 5 boats of course), but you'll have the comraderie and strength of larger regattas.

Hobie doesn't have to support the whole regatta, but they could support any given fleet inside the regatta.


Trey
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: NCSUtrey] #181068
06/05/09 10:53 AM
06/05/09 10:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Tami, I was referring to Fleet 204's success. Other areas have floundered, probably for the very reason that you gave, no strong local leadership. There's only so much that "upper management" can do.

"The fastest..." Some, but arguably not all.

Trey, in a nutshell, as a class, we (the HCA) don't care about building large mixed-bag regattas. As Pat and Chris have stated, this is the direction that the Hobie class has chosen as our best path forward. Others may disagree, but we feel that this is the direction we want to go. And, for those who may have forgotten, we tried it the other way, the results were worse for the Hobie classes (it was just taking longer for fleets and events in weaker areas to completely evoporate).

I also agree with Chris on another topic, that this is what we do for the Hobie class. Many of us support other events, and wear the appropriate hats at that time. There is a time and place for handicap racing, and it can be fun as well.

So, for anyone trying to pin me down, good luck...

Mike

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: brucat] #181070
06/05/09 11:01 AM
06/05/09 11:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
old hand
NCSUtrey  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
Originally Posted by brucat

Trey, in a nutshell, as a class, we (the HCA) don't care about building large mixed-bag regattas. As Pat and Chris have stated, this is the direction that the Hobie class has chosen as our best path forward. Others may disagree, but we feel that this is the direction we want to go. And, for those who may have forgotten, we tried it the other way, the results were worse for the Hobie classes (it was just taking longer for fleets and events in weaker areas to completely evoporate).
Mike


And that is why you will fail in the Southeast.
I know this area, I know these sailors, and I know the boats.

And for the record: I've got no bias for any manufacturer, other than the fact that I support and help lead the fleet in which I sail (N20).


Trey
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: NCSUtrey] #181073
06/05/09 11:28 AM
06/05/09 11:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
That's an honest opinion that may have merit, and I respect that.

Mike

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: brucat] #181074
06/05/09 11:29 AM
06/05/09 11:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
addict
tami  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
So Mike, given these statements you make, you and Wessels are duty bound to admit that your goals are not to promote BEACH CATAMARAN sailing, but HOBIE sailing.

And your goals are not best for the SPORT, but only best for the BRAND.

You both would be abject hypocrites to suggest that your ultimate goals are to promote CATAMARAN sailing, as Wessels tried to state within this very thread, and Todd Hart did correct.

It has again become crystal clear to me that within the HCA as you two represent it there is no altruism whatsoever for the sport, it's all about the brand. That's fine, but be damned sure you don't make any inclusive or sport-altruistic statements, for that would be lying.


Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: tami] #181076
06/05/09 11:39 AM
06/05/09 11:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by tami
So Mike, given these statements you make, you and Wessels are duty bound to admit that your goals are not to promote BEACH CATAMARAN sailing, but HOBIE sailing.

And your goals are not best for the SPORT, but only best for the BRAND.

You both would be abject hypocrites to suggest that your ultimate goals are to promote CATAMARAN sailing, as Wessels tried to state within this very thread, and Todd Hart did correct.

It has again become crystal clear to me that within the HCA as you two represent it there is no altruism whatsoever for the sport, it's all about the brand. That's fine, but be damned sure you don't make any inclusive or sport-altruistic statements, for that would be lying.



I had a dog....and his name was "Bingo".


Jake Kohl
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: tami] #181078
06/05/09 11:50 AM
06/05/09 11:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Brian_Mc Offline
old hand
Brian_Mc  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Mike, As a past, and hopefully future member of your fleet, I ask how our racing health is? Since the Hobie only ruling fleet 28 has died, and as far as I know numbers are way down for our races and regattas. I'm not a racer, but know we used to regularly have A,B and C fleets for 16s. Many who ran races, and served as RC had moved to Nacras but contributed a great deal to running and promoting the fleet. Now we have separate clubs, and smaller core groups running them. For the past decade my time has been devoted to senior care, and aside from a couple afternoons at nationals, my volunteer time was limited to emails and the forums. I have always appreciated the work done by you, and the others that have managed to keep our fleet alive, but wonder how it plays out in this debate. Maybe Bob Merrick will comment on his view, since he is an active racer. Thanks, Brian PS: I did show up in New Bedford at the learn to sail put on by Rick Bliss, when none of our fleet officers did.

Last edited by Brian_Mc; 06/05/09 12:14 PM.
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Brian_Mc] #181083
06/05/09 12:27 PM
06/05/09 12:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
Ok, I guess I will get myself in some real hot water now.
When IHCA sent down their Hobie only enforcement to the HCA, part of the plan was to implement a national scoring system for each class. You earned points by attending Hobie only events.
If you ranked in the top 35 in the 16 class you were invited to the supplied boat Nationals in Ventura. This was thought to be a three year program at that time. It turned out to be one year. This ranking system also helps qualify people to attend the Worlds run by IHCA.
So the ranking system doesn't really do much anymore. The good guys can still go and qualify even if IHCA doesn't give us any spots(I Think).
So where I'm going is, HCA does need to keep it's eyes open to what is going on all over the country. I know Chris is not clueless and does see what's happening.
We could be the HCA with the primary objective to promote Hobie sailing and an overall objective to promote Catamaran sailing. I know I have posted things like this before, Why not explore inviting A cats, Sharks, all F18's to a Hobie regatta on a trial basis and see how we do. The pre-qualified spots at the Worlds might be put in jeopardy,but is that more important than the overall health of the sport and ultimately our organization?
I think we could certainly use guys like Trey, Jake, Rick and many more on the same team.

Ok Mike, I will turn in my cards now. I did plan on retiring anyway after my highest finish ever at a Madcatter.



Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Brian_Mc] #181084
06/05/09 12:33 PM
06/05/09 12:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
old hand
SurfCityRacing  Offline
old hand

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
I want everyone to realize that the strength of an individual fleet does not represent what is going on in the racing scene.

For example, here in Santa Cruz:
I've got about 60 boats on the beach every summer of which maybe 2 ever race.

We get about 80 members that join our local fleet every year of which maybe 1/3rd ever race.

We generally get from 30-45 boats at every regatta many that are not members of any fleet.

J

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: pbisesi] #181085
06/05/09 12:33 PM
06/05/09 12:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
I see this as the right time and place for everything. I am NOT against any other cats.

I don't see how polluting the HCA goals and objectives with the goals and objectives of other classes is a good idea. This has not worked in the past, and can be viewed as a contributor to the current state that Brian mentions (of course, there were other factors). SMOD was even adopted by NENSA for a while to push to get upwards of 13 Nacra 6.0NAs on the line at some of our regattas. Open class racing was simply not getting it done in New England, other areas reported the same issue.

For me, this is very simple, yet so complex (paraphrased from BTE)...

I own a Hobie, and want my primary racing to be done with as many other SMOD Hobies as possible.

I also occasionally enjoy racing in distance races, where the "necessary evil" means racing handicap (my issue with this has to do with the scoring issues that have been hashed out ad nauseum on this forum, not being anti-Brand ABC Catamaran).

I also enjoy running regattas for ALL types of boats. Optis, Lasers, lead mines, etc. My favorite races are cats, because not only is it more fun to sail, but it's also more fun to watch faster boats.

So, yes, I can be interested in the health of the Hobie class as a SMOD entity, and be interested in catsailing in general.

Based on some postings here, that seems to be something that certain individuals cannot compute, but I assure you that is more of a reflection of them than me.

Pat, if I ever even get a trophy at Madcatter, I'll probably have the boat bronzed...

Mike

Page 12 of 18 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 17 18

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 21 guests, and 341 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
4alexha, Andrew_K, Maricatsailor78, gokenny, Five_Generations
8016 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
H17cat 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,375
Posts266,977
Members8,016
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1