| Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: cooper engineer]
#183791 07/01/09 09:30 AM 07/01/09 09:30 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... RickWhite 
Carpal Tunnel
|

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... | Not sure what boat you are doing this to. If a sloop, you do not want the draft forward where the jib overlaps. With boat with semi wing masts (large major axis, low minor axis) the mast becomes part of the sail. So, you can move the draft forward enough so the overall draft is still in the low to mid 30% range. On a fixed stick or roundish type mast like the Wave, you do not want to move the draft forward. Rick | | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: cooper engineer]
#183815 07/01/09 10:58 AM 07/01/09 10:58 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | I have a 20 ft. cat with wingmast ....and with more weather helm;
The issue is if moving the draft forward then reduces also the weather helm for the fact that moves also the CE forward.
The short answer is "yes" the CE will move forward, but by a shorter distance than that of the draft movement. The difference is due to the jib, obviously, and due to more complex aerodynamic reasons that I will leave for someone more qualified to explain. I would only move the draft to move the CE if the sail would also perform better after the change. Otherwise, just change the mast and/or rudder trim, as already suggested.
Luiz
| | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: scooby_simon]
#183816 07/01/09 11:01 AM 07/01/09 11:01 AM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 31 cooper engineer OP
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 31 | .
Last edited by cooper engineer; 07/01/09 11:03 AM.
| | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: Luiz]
#183819 07/01/09 11:08 AM 07/01/09 11:08 AM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 31 cooper engineer OP
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 31 | I have a 20 ft. cat with wingmast ....and with more weather helm;
The issue is if moving the draft forward then reduces also the weather helm for the fact that moves also the CE forward.
The short answer is "yes" the CE will move forward, but by a shorter distance than that of the draft movement. The difference is due to the jib, obviously, and due to more complex aerodynamic reasons that I will leave for someone more qualified to explain. I would only move the draft to move the CE if the sail would also perform better after the change. Otherwise, just change the mast and/or rudder trim, as already suggested. The draft now is at 40% and i not consider the wingmast ..... i think that if the draft move to 30% the sail perform better ..... or not ? | | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: cooper engineer]
#183820 07/01/09 11:09 AM 07/01/09 11:09 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | move the tip of the blade forward resolve the problem or hide the problem ?
Tilting the rudder forward solves the problem and reduces the possibility of ventilation. If the mast is vertical, I would tilt the rudder forward as much as possible and then rake the mast back until the rudder feels right. A totally neutral helm is not ideal, so don't try to completely eliminate weather helm.
Luiz
| | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: cooper engineer]
#183823 07/01/09 11:17 AM 07/01/09 11:17 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | The draft now is at 40% and i not consider the wingmast ..... i think that if the draft move to 30% the sail perform better ..... or not ?
The wingmast is part of the airofoil and must be considered. If it is a 10% wingmast, the airfoil draft is at 50% and moving it forward should be beneficial. Still, it depends on other factors. Best thing to do is check the draft position of the regatta winners in your class. A few relevant questions: What boat is it? Does the jib overlap? Do you use a downhaul? Is it powerfull enough? How old are your sails and of what sailcloth? Are the battens not tappered at all or you just plan to increase the tapper?
Luiz
| | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: Luiz]
#183825 07/01/09 11:21 AM 07/01/09 11:21 AM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 31 cooper engineer OP
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 31 | move the tip of the blade forward resolve the problem or hide the problem ?
Tilting the rudder forward solves the problem and reduces the possibility of ventilation. If the mast is vertical, I would tilt the rudder forward as much as possible and then rake the mast back until the rudder feels right. A totally neutral helm is not ideal, so don't try to completely eliminate weather helm. Thanks Luiz, but i don't understand the rule for which if I move the rudder forward i reduces the weather helm. please explains me. The sail is not old but it could be cut badly | | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: cooper engineer]
#183826 07/01/09 11:22 AM 07/01/09 11:22 AM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
addict
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571 Hamburg | ....... and move also the CE forward ? ..... and it reduces the weather helm ? in short: no for both questions. the centre of effort is nearly not affected by the position of the draft, but by the amount of draft. Tapering the battens will increase the draft and you get more weather helm. Too much weather helm is in most cases a too full main and/or a too flat jib. Cheers, Klaus | | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: Luiz]
#183827 07/01/09 11:29 AM 07/01/09 11:29 AM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 31 cooper engineer OP
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 31 | The draft now is at 40% and i not consider the wingmast ..... i think that if the draft move to 30% the sail perform better ..... or not ?
The wingmast is part of the airofoil and must be considered. If it is a 10% wingmast, the airfoil draft is at 50% and moving it forward should be beneficial. Still, it depends on other factors. Best thing to do is check the draft position of the regatta winners in your class. A few relevant questions: What boat is it? Does the jib overlap? Do you use a downhaul? Is it powerfull enough? How old are your sails and of what sailcloth? Are the battens not tappered at all or you just plan to increase the tapper? the boat is a prototype to which it has been adapted a sail...probably F18, the jib don't overlap ( i have self tacking ), i use the downhaul that is 8:1, the battens are tapered at 40%....... | | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: cooper engineer]
#183829 07/01/09 11:32 AM 07/01/09 11:32 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | ...i don't understand the rule for which if I move the rudder forward i reduces the weather helm. please explains me.
It does not look natural, but tilting the rudder forward may improve its balance, depending on how it is now. Check the drawings: They are from this website, which is recommended reading.
Last edited by Luiz; 07/01/09 11:39 AM.
Luiz
| | | Re: Battens tapered and CE
[Re: Luiz]
#183832 07/01/09 11:38 AM 07/01/09 11:38 AM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 31 cooper engineer OP
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 31 | move the tip of the blade forward resolve the problem or hide the problem ?
Tilting the rudder forward solves the problem and reduces the possibility of ventilation. If the mast is vertical, I would tilt the rudder forward as much as possible and then rake the mast back until the rudder feels right. A totally neutral helm is not ideal, so don't try to completely eliminate weather helm. Thanks Luiz, but i don't understand the rule for which if I move the rudder forward i reduces the weather helm. please explains me. The sail is not old but it could be cut badly It does not look natural, but tilting the rudder forward may improve its balance, depending on how it is now. I'll try to find a drawing. instinctively I think tilting the rudder forward move the CLR forward and inreases the weather helm ..... and don't understand ...... | | |
|
0 registered members (),
253
guests, and 29
spiders. | Key: Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod | | Forums26 Topics22,406 Posts267,061 Members8,150 | Most Online2,167 Dec 19th, 2022 | | |