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Applying the Rules. #188857
08/24/09 06:53 PM
08/24/09 06:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline OP
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Darryn  Offline OP
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Hi all,
I sail my catamaran singlehanded on the same course as dinghys with a crew of three, Sharpie.

I have had 4 separate incidents where I have clearly had ROW but had to take drastic evasive action to avoid a collision with a Sharpie, different boat each time.

When discussing the situation post race with the Sharpie crew their argument is,
1, Three of us and one of you so no way you will win a protest.
2, Catamarans only get in the way and stuff up our serious racing.


Talking with other cat sailors at the club they agree that what I have stated above also happens to them however they dont wish to take them on as it leads to even more problems, in their experince, on the race course. Independent witnesses have also used the same argument to avoid being involved.

This is at a large club with a growing dinghy fleet made up of older traditional type designs. Catamaran numbers have reduce by 60% (30 cats) in the last 5 years.

Does this situation occur at you club?
How was it dealt with?

Darryn


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188859
08/24/09 07:10 PM
08/24/09 07:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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Darren,

yes, I have this problem at my club.

2 fleets have loads of boats out and have NO IDEA of the rules; I've had numerous "discussions" with people who's attitude stinks; they think they own the lake and do not understand that even if they are in a close race; they still have obligations to boats in other fleets.

I have seen the same happen; but where I sail we are down 95% form 10 years ago.

I would suggest you need to talk to the sailing-management of the club and also start to protest. If they play the "3 crew card" stste that that is not important; they are crew and so will not count for much (in a proper protest).

Start calling some of these poeple out. otherwise they get away with it and it then makes it "common" and others copy; they forget the rules and it becomes unsafe.

Good luck.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188867
08/24/09 08:33 PM
08/24/09 08:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
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chrisun  Offline
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Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Hi Darryn,

Can you give us more details about the situation?
Are you sharing the start with the dinghies?
If so, how many cats are in the start with you, or are you the only cat?

If cats have their own start are you lapping the dinghies on the course or are these windward leeward encounters?

- - -

If you have your own start there are lots of solutions that you and the RC can work out to minimize encounters on the course. If you are the sole cat, or otherwise sharing the start with the dinghies, you're in a difficult position to which there is no good solution.

Cheers,
Christopher


C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: scooby_simon] #188873
08/24/09 08:51 PM
08/24/09 08:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 120
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Brett Goodall Offline
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Brett Goodall  Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon

I would suggest you need to talk to the sailing-management of the club and also start to protest. If they play the "3 crew card" stste that that is not important; they are crew and so will not count for much (in a proper protest).

Start calling some of these poeple out. otherwise they get away with it and it then makes it "common" and others copy; they forget the rules and it becomes unsafe.


Defiantly do this. It would also pay to get some of the other sailors who have had similar issues to back you up. It sounds like an ongoing problem and if it is a shared issue amongst the sailors this will help your cause.

It is really disappointing when crews stop abiding by the rules because they know you'll avoid them and won't protest. This happen all the way from club races to world championships. Sometimes the only approach is to protest and have them canned once or twice. It's unfortunate but they may need this to realize they are not above the rules.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Brett Goodall] #188875
08/24/09 08:59 PM
08/24/09 08:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Protest them. If they win by out numbering you get a waterproof video camera. Tell them it's on even if it's not, even better if it's running the whole time. If that doesn't work, put something menacing on your sprit or bows, like stainless steel caps and play hardball.
Tawd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188881
08/24/09 09:56 PM
08/24/09 09:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
2, Catamarans only get in the way and stuff up our serious racing.


Something about three person boats... We had a similar issue between lightnings and cats.

Are you racing against these sharpies or just sharing the race course? If you are racing the sharpies then your commodore needs to give a pep talk to the fleet that marginalizing the odd boats by not racing by the rules is not acceptable.

Yes protests are not evil tests that require pistols at 20 paces. Protests keep the game fair and safe. By all means press your case, (at the worst, you will learn how to make your case effectively)

You also might consider the context. Screwing around with slow mono's on the course can never be fast. Unless your cross is unavoidable ... say a mark rounding.. it's both smart and considerate to sail around them with your speed.

Consider a beach cat on port with spin trying to cross a parade of 30 + foot monohulls sailing down wind on port.

Yes, you would be legal in taking up the monohull after giving him room and opportunity... but why?... Luff the chute, take the transom and keep on flying...


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188885
08/24/09 10:29 PM
08/24/09 10:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
DougSnell Offline
Pooh-Bah
DougSnell  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
Originally Posted by Darryn
Hi all,
I sail my catamaran singlehanded on the same course as dinghys with a crew of three, Sharpie.

I have had 4 separate incidents where I have clearly had ROW but had to take drastic evasive action to avoid a collision with a Sharpie, different boat each time.

When discussing the situation post race with the Sharpie crew their argument is,
1, Three of us and one of you so no way you will win a protest.
2, Catamarans only get in the way and stuff up our serious racing.


Talking with other cat sailors at the club they agree that what I have stated above also happens to them however they dont wish to take them on as it leads to even more problems, in their experince, on the race course. Independent witnesses have also used the same argument to avoid being involved.

This is at a large club with a growing dinghy fleet made up of older traditional type designs. Catamaran numbers have reduce by 60% (30 cats) in the last 5 years.

Does this situation occur at you club?
How was it dealt with?

Darryn



Get you an water balloon sling shot and put some ice balloons in cooler. Bounce a few off there hulls and they will move next time. LOL LOL

Doug

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #188888
08/24/09 10:44 PM
08/24/09 10:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
D
Darryn Offline OP
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Darryn  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
I have talked to race management, largely made up of friends and relatives of the Sharpie sailors, they dont think its a problem because it is the way it has always been plus cat sailors just like to whinge.

Tried calling them out on the beach, escalated quickly and didn't end well.

We have both mixed and separate starts, its easy to avoid them if I stay away from the committee boat so no issue there. Mark roundings and port/starboard is the problem as having to tack from starboard onto port or sail inside the mark when mark room isn't given costs lots of time and it affects the results.

I agree it is fastest to minimalise interaction with other boats but with 60 boats on the same course its almost impossible to avoid them completely. When I'm in front or coming second or third I think its just plain wrong to loose 100 metres because 1 group of boats wont obey the rules, particularly when 60 seconds often covers the first three places in our fleet.

I am not going to reinforce my boat so I can collide with other boats. Camera idea is a good one, will give me something to use when I protest them.

I wont get backup from the other cat sailors, they are long term members and not interested in making waves.

For some reason it makes me feel better that sailors from other countries have the same problems, I appreciate the replies.
Darryn


Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188894
08/25/09 01:48 AM
08/25/09 01:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
australia
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self_inflicted Offline
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self_inflicted  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
australia
Hi Darren
I would park my boat 2 boat widths' higher than him, and just in front and shadow him around the whole course, When he has a whinge which all monos do cry, Just tell him "thats that the safest place to have you", I think he will soon gets the Sh***ts, And i think the next time you meet he will probably more resonable
OR
The other option is
Tell him the boats insured to the hill and i need a new boat so i'm coming through
The last comment worked at or club where a guy used to try and bluff his way through grin grin

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: self_inflicted] #188897
08/25/09 02:25 AM
08/25/09 02:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline OP
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Darryn  Offline OP
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Its not just one boat, seems to be an attitude within their class.
After re-reading my posts I am going to change clubs, I will miss the cat racing on the weekends.
Darryn

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188898
08/25/09 02:33 AM
08/25/09 02:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
australia
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self_inflicted Offline
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self_inflicted  Offline
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australia
Hi Darren
I wouldn't change clubs, stir them up if not they get away with being bully boys.
What makes them sailing around a pond any better than you??
It must be a monohull thing
Just my thoughts

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188911
08/25/09 04:53 AM
08/25/09 04:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted by Darryn
Its not just one boat, seems to be an attitude within their class.
After re-reading my posts I am going to change clubs, I will miss the cat racing on the weekends.
Darryn


Changing clubs allows them to continue.

They will not learn. Someone will get hurt, and then the crap really hits the fan.

Also, consider making it clear that this kind of atticude plays into the area of "fair sailing"; last think a club wants is a rule 2 protest on their books!!!!

Last edited by scooby_simon; 08/25/09 04:58 AM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: scooby_simon] #188913
08/25/09 05:07 AM
08/25/09 05:07 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
I certainly understand the squeeze Darryn is in as well since nobody at the club dares to back him up.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #188917
08/25/09 06:51 AM
08/25/09 06:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
The situation is about more than respect...although this is the one that pulls at our emotional strings...It's also one of safety. If you can't depend on them to sail by the right of way rules, collisions happen.


Jake Kohl
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Jake] #188920
08/25/09 07:25 AM
08/25/09 07:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Darryn, Why would you want to be associated with these people?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Jake] #188924
08/25/09 07:49 AM
08/25/09 07:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Chris9  Offline
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Crofton, MD
I have had the same problem with two-different classes for the past two years. Separate starts, same race course area, with different windward mark for us, shared leeward mark. Protesting begins next summer, since there are not any shared race course race left on the schedule.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Jake] #188928
08/25/09 08:15 AM
08/25/09 08:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
old hand
pepin  Offline
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Posts: 976
France
Darryn, if you are considering leaving the club, at least go for a parting shot:

Next time, shout and don't change course. Force your way in any shape or form. Slow down, try not to hit anyone, but DO NOT TACK. Bonus point for slowing down right in the middle of the fleet so that everyone is forced to avoid you.

Having a camera running would be really nice. But do not tell anyone before. Capture them on their worst behavior.

Then protest whoever did not make a hole for you in the first place. Also protest every single boat that shouted insults at you. Go to the protest committee.

Right at the beginning of each protest hearing, pass to the commitee a letter asking that the finding of the committee be communicated to you in writing (rule 65.2)

Next put on record that you consider all sharpie sailor or class member on the protest committee to be "interested parties". Any family member of a sailor on the course is also an "interested party". Ask them to recuse themselves due to a pattern of intimidation by Sharpie sailors. Insist that these comments are captured in writing if they do not recuse themselves (Rule 63.4: Interested party).

Demand that *only* the representative of the protested boat be present, not the full crew. The crew can only be admitted to give evidence and must then move out of the room (Rule 63.3: Right to be present).

If your protest is valid, they have to disqualify them. If they don't, lodge an appeal with your national authority.


Rules are rules. Use them.

And don't be afraid to shame the club publicly by posting your story on as many place as possible. Hey, write a nice report about the unfairness of it and you may even get a shot at the front page of SA: that's when the **** hits the fan smile

Last edited by pepin; 08/25/09 08:15 AM.
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: pepin] #188931
08/25/09 08:42 AM
08/25/09 08:42 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Err, we do this for fun, right? Not much fun in that (neither is there much fun their behaviour against other classes). Instead of creating a huge situation, begin protesting in the small without looking for a situation. Dont hurt to have a camera though..

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: self_inflicted] #188941
08/25/09 11:30 AM
08/25/09 11:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
old hand
Tornado  Offline
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Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by self_inflicted
Hi Darren
I wouldn't change clubs, stir them up if not they get away with being bully boys.
What makes them sailing around a pond any better than you??
It must be a monohull thing
Just my thoughts



Unfortunately, no, this is not just a monohull thing! Cat sailors are also quite susceptible to the "holier than thou" mindset.

I've had pro/coached teams use intimidation tactics against me during major Tornado events...including being screamed at to read the rules on port/starboard crossings (me on starboard); being told not to park under a boat on a starting line etc etc.

And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Tornado] #188945
08/25/09 11:44 AM
08/25/09 11:44 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by Tornado

And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.



This begs the question: Did you finish before them? grin

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 08/25/09 11:45 AM.
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