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Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Tornado] #188947
08/25/09 12:07 PM
08/25/09 12:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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France
Originally Posted by Tornado
[...]had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.
Usually the most competitive the fleet is, the least pleasant the competitors are.

And that's one of the reason why our sport can't attract more people. I haven't raced from 1983 to 2003. 20 years. I was sailing (420, 505, TheMightyHobie18, H14, H16...) but not racing. The reason? I went racing with a friend on his 520 at a national, and we were bullied around the whole day. My limited experience club racing Optimists, 320 and 420 did not prepare me for this amount of abuse. I called it quits and never raced again.

Until I joined my current club, on a reservoir, a place where there is absolutely no point cruising around. But I am now older, I can take the abuse, and I will protest any bully on principle.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Tornado] #188948
08/25/09 12:12 PM
08/25/09 12:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
Cat sailors are also quite susceptible to the "holier than thou" mindset.

I've had pro/coached teams use intimidation tactics against me during major Tornado events...including being screamed at to read the rules on port/starboard crossings (me on starboard); being told not to park under a boat on a starting line etc etc.

And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.


Ah... the back to your ghetto mindset!

Bad behavior in one design or open class racing results in no fun!.....

Throw these attitudes in the mix with the other factors (many a thread)... is it any wonder it's proving to be tough to revive the sport.
It never ceases to amaze me... Why do these asshats think you will purchase one of their class boats, to compete against these butt hats?!... I didn't.

When your options are either protest on fair sailing... or change clubs and quit, or change boats to play....
Blah!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Tornado] #188950
08/25/09 12:22 PM
08/25/09 12:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado
And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.


Mike, are you referring to Santa Barbara?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: John Williams] #188953
08/25/09 12:50 PM
08/25/09 12:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Tornado
And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.


Mike, are you referring to Santa Barbara?


Yes.
I thought it was terrific how lots of teams convinced the RC to put the T in the F18 races. It was not so terrific to discover out on the race course that I wasn't "really" racing and to hear "Get the F**K out of our way!" on a port/starboard cross (me on starboard again); "Keep off our wind...We're racing!"; "Don't get 'competitive' with us on the start!" ; etc. etc.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Tornado] #188960
08/25/09 01:19 PM
08/25/09 01:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
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2017 F18 Americas Site
Mike:

Your a nice guy, but...

On a Tornado you are not on the same boat as the F18s. You and I have had numerous conversations about you sailing F18s...mostly me trying to convince you to be part of a big competitive fleet, on the same boat. You contend that you are more competitive with us when you are on your Tornado. I really would like you to be on the same boat for fair and direct competition, it would be way more fun that way. If you are looking to be competitive there is always someone nearby to find competition, if all things are equal. Sorry you are out of sorts about SB. In defense, that was one of the last regattas before we sail the North Americans in Long Beach so there was a bit of extra voltage on the course.

By the way I only found 2 F18 sailors that knew you were joining in the F18 racing. When I voiced my concerns one of those sailors assured me that you would not be in the way a minute after the start, since a T is so much faster...

Since you prefer sailing in a Portsmouth class, tell the race committee where you would like to race. I know there was a Hobie 20 sailing by themselves. All the other boats involved in that regatta made minimum numbers for class sailing. I think the guys on the 20 would have liked to sail against you at least to the weather mark.

Later,
Dan

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Dan_Delave] #188964
08/25/09 01:41 PM
08/25/09 01:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Dan_Delave
Mike:

Your a nice guy, but...

On a Tornado you are not on the same boat as the F18s. You and I have had numerous conversations about you sailing F18s...mostly me trying to convince you to be part of a big competitive fleet, on the same boat. You contend that you are more competitive with us when you are on your Tornado. I really would like you to be on the same boat for fair and direct competition, it would be way more fun that way. If you are looking to be competitive there is always someone nearby to find competition, if all things are equal. Sorry you are out of sorts about SB. In defense, that was one of the last regattas before we sail the North Americans in Long Beach so there was a bit of extra voltage on the course.

By the way I only found 2 F18 sailors that knew you were joining in the F18 racing. When I voiced my concerns one of those sailors assured me that you would not be in the way a minute after the start, since a T is so much faster...

Since you prefer sailing in a Portsmouth class, tell the race committee where you would like to race. I know there was a Hobie 20 sailing by themselves. All the other boats involved in that regatta made minimum numbers for class sailing. I think the guys on the 20 would have liked to sail against you at least to the weather mark.

Later,
Dan


Dan,

You are defending an indefensible position. First off if you wanted your own start you needed to make it clear to the RC what you wanted from the get go. I know it’s unpopular to exclude teams but if that’s what you wanted and the RC was willing then someone had to stand up and be the bad guy. Once the decision was made to include other boats in your start the fleet simply needed to deal with it like adults and treat them like any other competitor.

What’s totally unacceptable is the P/S and “get off my wind” situations if that did in fact happen! We share the course with everyone else and MUST OBEY the RRS regardless of the insignia on their mainsail! This is no different than the actions of the dingy sailors in the other thread. This type of thing does nothing but turn people away from our class. We are much better than this!

Do you think Mike is more or less inclined to get involved with the F18 fleet now?

Regards,

David Ingram
NAF18 Chairman


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: David Ingram] #188968
08/25/09 01:58 PM
08/25/09 01:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
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Quote
Dan,

You are defending an indefensible position.

Okay then...

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Dan_Delave] #188978
08/25/09 03:05 PM
08/25/09 03:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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I know of one instance when we rounded the last top mark in a very close third and Mike was on our heels. Competition for first place was pretty fierce, and we were setting up for a very competitive fight for the finish. I looked back and saw Mike driving very high to attack us. My skipper had words to the effect of "C'mon, you're not racing us." Mike gybed, which was the tactically smart move even if he'd been in a Portsmouth fleet.

Mike, if that is the sort of thing you are referring to, then I can see your frustration. I was one of those who said, "sure, let him sail with us." There was no other place for the RC to put you, really. I assumed, however, that you weren't racing us. It seems like you were just out for a sail and some practice. I assumed you understood that it was an important warm up for F18 North Americans. That was why I was laughing on Saturday afternoon when you looked back at us during one A-pin rounding and said, "NO ROOM." I thought, based on the above assumptions and the fact we were three boatlengths behind you, that you were making a joke. Instead, it sounds like you were quite serious and wanting to race anyone near you as if you were in a Portsmouth fleet.

It was a misunderstanding on multiple levels. I'm sorry, both for offending you and for speaking up at the skipper's meeting.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: John Williams] #188981
08/25/09 03:30 PM
08/25/09 03:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Presumably this is the event.

Wine and Roses NOR

No classes mentioned in this NOR!

It's a big charity event....

Its hosted by the Yacht Club as the OA... not the F18 class... so... when the RC puts you into a class... you are racing them... What's confusing about this?

Oh... and it's for a charity...

It's Worth a repost authored by the ex Laser Class OD president speaking about a DINGHY portsmouth race.

Quote
Let's hope your no class fleet is as wildly successful at the texas version. They figured out that it is lots more fun to welcome anything that floats and wonder at how much the owner loves it than to drive away those folks
and forever alienate them.

Sometimes the fleet with no class manages to crack 20 boats...while all the individual one design fleets have 15 or fewer.

It's great.

Wow. What is that? I haven't ever sen one before!!

What's that line for??

Suddenly you have a smiling new sailing friend.

If for some reason the sailor decides competition is more important than his prized toy...he will join the friendliest fleet.

It really is that simple.


PS... anyone think the Hobie 20 who had a weekend of sailing around in circles will be back next year either?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Mark Schneider] #188984
08/25/09 04:09 PM
08/25/09 04:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


That's not an NOR - at least according to the RRS.

Key elements missing:
- The organizing authority is not specifically stated (although you could imply that SBYC is by being the "host")
- That the event will be run using the Racing Rules of Sailing (presumably it was)
- The classes to race, any handicap or rating system that will be used and the classes to which it will apply, conditions of entry and any restrictions on entries.
- The times of registration and warning signals for the practice race, if one is scheduled, and the first race, and succeeding races if known.

Quote
89.2 Notice of Race; Appointment of Race Officials
(a) The organizing authority shall publish a notice of race that conforms
to rule J1.


Quote
J1 NOTICE OF RACE CONTENTS
J1.1 The notice of race shall include the following information:
(1) the title, place and dates of the race and name of the organizing authority;
(2) that the race will be governed by the rules as defined in The Racing Rules of Sailing;
(3) a list of any other documents that will govern the event (for example, The Equipment Rules of Sailing, to the extent that
they apply), stating where or how each document or a copy of it may be seen;
(4) the classes to race, any handicap or rating system that will be used and the classes to which it will apply, conditions of entry
and any restrictions on entries;
(5) the times of registration and warning signals for the practice race, if one is scheduled, and the first race, and succeeding
races if known.


This "NOR" pretty much fails on all accounts.

Sounds like the whole weekend was full of fail.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: mbounds] #188985
08/25/09 04:22 PM
08/25/09 04:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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I disagree, Matt. I had a great time. There were no protests. Lots of money was raised for a good cause. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: John Williams] #188987
08/25/09 04:59 PM
08/25/09 04:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
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Partial detour:

It's amazing how many things are done incorrectly in NORs and SIs with respect to RRS. This is not limited to cat events. Only people who are as anal as Matt and I are about these things (partially due to our training) would probably even notice; that is, until the wheels fall off the bus.

Carry on...

Mike

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Tornado] #189003
08/25/09 07:09 PM
08/25/09 07:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado

Unfortunately, no, this is not just a monohull thing! Cat sailors are also quite susceptible to the "holier than thou" mindset.

And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.


It's kind of difficult to comment on your situation, Darryn, since we don't yet know the details, but I can comment on the question in a broader sense based on my own experience.

I too sailed the Santa Barbara Wine and Roses Regatta in the F-18 fleet, and I race my own cat in a variety of local regattas including those put on by ABYC where I am sharing the course with F-18s, H16 and A cats among others.

My advice is to minimize encounters with the dinghies/other fleets as much as possible. Anytime there are enough cats to merit your own start you should request it. With your own start the RC should be able to put enough distance between you and the dinghy fleet to avoid encounters at mark roundings and upwind or down. Whenever possible I would avoid starting in any start that includes a class fleet.

Everyone loses when you mix it up with another class. You foul them (in terms of affecting their intra-class race) and even if you win... what are you winning? When you examine the purpose for them being on the course versus you, they are sailing a completely different race than you are - even if not thus represented on paper.

Sure you could press the rules, but this will only serve to aggravate the situation. It won't teach people the rules. Instead it will only encourage them to conclude something negative about you or about cat sailors in general.

The key thing to keep in mind is that your purpose for racing is quite different from the purpose that those sailing in a class have in mind when they sign up to race a regatta. They are out to compete between their group. You are not going to win friends by crashing that party. Better to find a group of people like you who want to race handicap. Then you, as part of that group (handicap fleet), are all on the race course for the same reason too.

Even if you do end up in a mixed (handicap) fleet, it's still not always easy. As an example, the last time I sailed my boat in an ABYC regatta, I overtook the three fleets/starts in front of me before I got to the weather mark. Each of those fleets that I overtook was a class start. Therefore I tried to be respectful of the competition within those fleets by not pressing my rights (e.g. P/S) except when not doing so would result in gassing the fleet for longer periods of time than by crossing.

I think a respectful and courteous attitude on the course in these situations will earn you more respect and a better time than pressing your rights at the cost of affecting the outcome of other fleets.

Mike's situation at Santa Barbara is a perfect example of this. While the F-18 fleet was happy to see another boat out on the water, the fact that Mike was mixing it up among the F-18 fleet up and down and forcing boats to make maneuvers that tactically they would otherwise not make, means that he was affecting the results of the F-18 fleet: a fleet that he was not even scored with. He was certainly not endearing himself by so doing. And frankly, I can't think of one person from the F-18 fleet who said, "I'm glad the Tornado is sailing with the F-18s." The outcome of this is that Mike walked away feeling unwelcome and the F-18 fleet felt imposed upon. Who wins in this situation?? No one. The RC should never have considered this, and Mike shouldn't have asked to sail with the F-18s.

The trouble here arose because neither the F-18 fleet organizers nor Mike considered that in reality the F-18s and Mike were there for different purposes. Only superficially did it make sense to mix the T in with the F-18s, and no one won out by doing this.

A good RC making good decisions is the best way to avoid these situations. If you still end up encountering other fleets on the course - just be considerate of why you are each there (i.e. if you're racing handicap on the same course as class fleets).

Respectfully,
Christopher



C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189010
08/25/09 08:30 PM
08/25/09 08:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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Once the Race Committee set the classes defining who was racing whom, the game was set. The F18's in question had a simple decision to follow the rules or not . It didn't matter if Mike was on a "T" or just a "Newbie" on a F18 ... he/they deserve to be treated w/ respect and the RRS's followed. You are trying to justify poor sportsmanship by some F18 racers just because Mike was not on a F18 but was officially in their class. Incidences like this do not reflect well on either the individual F18 sailors involved or of the F18 class

Harry Murphey


Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189012
08/25/09 08:31 PM
08/25/09 08:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline OP
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Originally Posted by chrisun
Originally Posted by Tornado

Unfortunately, no, this is not just a monohull thing! Cat sailors are also quite susceptible to the "holier than thou" mindset.

And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.


It's kind of difficult to comment on your situation, Darryn, since we don't yet know the details, but I can comment on the question in a broader sense based on my own experience.

I too sailed the Santa Barbara Wine and Roses Regatta in the F-18 fleet, and I race my own cat in a variety of local regattas including those put on by ABYC where I am sharing the course with F-18s, H16 and A cats among others.

My advice is to minimize encounters with the dinghies/other fleets as much as possible. Anytime there are enough cats to merit your own start you should request it. With your own start the RC should be able to put enough distance between you and the dinghy fleet to avoid encounters at mark roundings and upwind or down. Whenever possible I would avoid starting in any start that includes a class fleet.

Everyone loses when you mix it up with another class. You foul them (in terms of affecting their intra-class race) and even if you win... what are you winning? When you examine the purpose for them being on the course versus you, they are sailing a completely different race than you are - even if not thus represented on paper.

Sure you could press the rules, but this will only serve to aggravate the situation. It won't teach people the rules. Instead it will only encourage them to conclude something negative about you or about cat sailors in general.

The key thing to keep in mind is that your purpose for racing is quite different from the purpose that those sailing in a class have in mind when they sign up to race a regatta. They are out to compete between their group. You are not going to win friends by crashing that party. Better to find a group of people like you who want to race handicap. Then you, as part of that group (handicap fleet), are all on the race course for the same reason too.

Even if you do end up in a mixed (handicap) fleet, it's still not always easy. As an example, the last time I sailed my boat in an ABYC regatta, I overtook the three fleets/starts in front of me before I got to the weather mark. Each of those fleets that I overtook was a class start. Therefore I tried to be respectful of the competition within those fleets by not pressing my rights (e.g. P/S) except when not doing so would result in gassing the fleet for longer periods of time than by crossing.

I think a respectful and courteous attitude on the course in these situations will earn you more respect and a better time than pressing your rights at the cost of affecting the outcome of other fleets.

Mike's situation at Santa Barbara is a perfect example of this. While the F-18 fleet was happy to see another boat out on the water, the fact that Mike was mixing it up among the F-18 fleet up and down and forcing boats to make maneuvers that tactically they would otherwise not make, means that he was affecting the results of the F-18 fleet: a fleet that he was not even scored with. He was certainly not endearing himself by so doing. And frankly, I can't think of one person from the F-18 fleet who said, "I'm glad the Tornado is sailing with the F-18s." The outcome of this is that Mike walked away feeling unwelcome and the F-18 fleet felt imposed upon. Who wins in this situation?? No one. The RC should never have considered this, and Mike shouldn't have asked to sail with the F-18s.

The trouble here arose because neither the F-18 fleet organizers nor Mike considered that in reality the F-18s and Mike were there for different purposes. Only superficially did it make sense to mix the T in with the F-18s, and no one won out by doing this.

A good RC making good decisions is the best way to avoid these situations. If you still end up encountering other fleets on the course - just be considerate of why you are each there (i.e. if you're racing handicap on the same course as class fleets).

Respectfully,
Christopher


When I race at the club Mosquitos have there own start, we usually get 10 or so Mosquitos and often we are the largest class. The racing amongst the Mozzys is very close, we stick to the rules and basically we all get along with each other.

I am very respectful of other classes, particularly the juniors classes that we often share a race course with, I absolutely dont want to put any kids off sailing, I have three kids of my own and see how they react when the nutters are screaming at us on the course. I am very flexible with the rules if I have ROW and young or inexperienced sailors makes a mistake that affects my race. However there are some situations when sailing against adults who have won National championships that cant be explained away by inexperience or lack of attention.
For example approaching windward mark on starboard tack with 200 metres to go and a Sharpie comes in on port, refusing to give ROW, forcing me to tack to avoid a collision or having an inside overlap at a mark, their bow level with my centrebord case, 4 boat lengths from the mark with me ending up sailing inside the mark as their bow hits the outboard side of my rear beam when they turn into the mark.

Rearranging the order of the starts doestn't fix the problem with races lasting 90 minutes, a mix of triangle and windward returns and 60 boats on the course boats will always meet at the marks and layline approaches to the marks.

I hope I have explained the situation better, I'm not talking about minor infractions, I'm talking about other classes blatantly ignoring the ROW rules because I am sailing a catamaran.

I also own a Flying Fifteen so I have no real bias.

Our sport is self regulating, its the individuals personal level of integrity that makes us do a circle when we hit a mark even if no one sees it, with all the focus on winning and perhaps a slide of some individuals level of integrity the end result is some sailors just dont follow the rules.
Protesting one boat in a fleet where obeying the rules seems to be optional might make that one boat more careful but I have found over the last two years of sailing at that club the more waves I make the more my boat gets damaged in the rigging area and more anonymous threatening notes get stuck to my car windshield at the club.

Moving on from the club is the right move for me, my closest club has a friendly Flying fifteen fleet and theres cat club that races Sundays 1 hours drive away, will try and get down there sometimes to keep my skills honed for the Nationals.

Thanks for all the replies and advice, lack of sportsmanship in some classes is a taboo subject around here, so it good to discuss it and find out I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Darryn


Last edited by Darryn; 08/26/09 05:35 AM. Reason: spelling
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189017
08/25/09 09:41 PM
08/25/09 09:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Nice post!

Quote
The trouble here arose because neither the F-18 fleet organizers nor Mike considered that in reality the F-18s and Mike were there for different purposes. Only superficially did it make sense to mix the T in with the F-18s, and no one won out by doing this.


The NOR sets the expectations for the regatta ... When they are not even stated.. much less met... upsets occur. It's a little late to resolve this at the skippers meeting after you have traveled and set your boat up.... at this point you are going to be upset before you get wet.

It's a good bet that the OA wanted as many boats to attend as possible since it was an annual fund raiser for a charity. The OA is interested in generating a good regatta for ALL of the participants... not just the biggest class... so the OA's goal is that ALL racers will return next year and hopefully bring more boats.

From the OA's point of view... marginalizing boats that don't make class at the skippers meeting probably means they won't be back next year.

Sounds like you need some ground rules beyond a proper NOR. EG if you want a OD fleet... best have 10?? boats registered one week in advanced and have it published... otherwise the OA will group like boats and score you on handicap (no matter how many class members show). This process would let the odd Portsmouth boat make up their mind if it's a race they want to compete in before the registration deadline. Likewise, the OD class can only grumble about their fleet members who did not register in time or also choose to not show if it's not a OD race of their standards.

Set and meet expecations = no upsets!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: HMurphey] #189019
08/25/09 09:45 PM
08/25/09 09:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
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Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by HMurphey
You are trying to justify poor sportsmanship by some F18 racers just because Mike was not on a F18 but was officially in their class.

Harry Murphey


I am??? I assure you I am not.

However, to explain the situation more clearly: Mike was NOT racing in the F-18 class. Mike was NOT scored with the F-18s. Mike was scored individually, and because he asked to start with the F-18s instead of with the (2 boat) Portsmouth fleet he was scored against no one.

From my own perspective, it is possible that I might have been one of the individuals overheard by Mike to have said "Get the [censored] out of the way..." in a given P/S crossing. I hope not, but if so, I sincerely apologize, because I certainly didn't intend to have spoken loud enough to be overheard.

The point of my last post was only to highlight that it is desirable to arrange ways minimize overlap with disparate fleets with the RC ahead of time. Among the practical suggestions and examples of my post, this point may have been muddied.

Christopher


C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Mark Schneider] #189020
08/25/09 09:56 PM
08/25/09 09:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
journeyman
chrisun  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


The NOR sets the expectations for the regatta ... When they are not even stated.. much less met... upsets occur. It's a little late to resolve this at the skippers meeting after you have traveled and set your boat up.... at this point you are going to be upset before you get wet.

It's a good bet that the OA wanted as many boats to attend as possible since it was an annual fund raiser for a charity. The OA is interested in generating a good regatta for ALL of the participants... not just the biggest class... so the OA's goal is that ALL racers will return next year and hopefully bring more boats.

From the OA's point of view... marginalizing boats that don't make class at the skippers meeting probably means they won't be back next year.

Sounds like you need some ground rules beyond a proper NOR. EG if you want a OD fleet... best have 10?? boats registered one week in advanced and have it published... otherwise the OA will group like boats and score you on handicap (no matter how many class members show). This process would let the odd Portsmouth boat make up their mind if it's a race they want to compete in before the registration deadline. Likewise, the OD class can only grumble about their fleet members who did not register in time or also choose to not show if it's not a OD race of their standards.

Set and meet expecations = no upsets!


This is exactly right. In the case of the Santa Barbara regatta a last minute decision was made by the RC to move Mike from the mixed class TheMightyHobie18/Portsmouth start to the F-18 start so that he could race longer courses since only the F-18 fleet would be sailing to the more distant weather mark. [His preference may or may not have been solicited... I don't remember who brought the question up.] It was a bad decision by the RC.

Last edited by chrisun; 08/25/09 09:56 PM.

C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #189021
08/25/09 10:18 PM
08/25/09 10:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
journeyman
chrisun  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by Darryn

When I race at the club Mosquitos have there own start, we usually get 10 or so Mosquitos and often we are the largest class.

For example approaching windward mark on starboard tack with 200 metres to go and a Sharpie comes in on port, refusing to give ROW...

Rearranging the order of the starts doestn't fix the problem with races lasting 90 minutes...

...I'm talking about other classes blatantly ignoring the ROW rules because I am sailing a catamaran.

Darryn



Darryn,

That does make more sense. I think the approach with the best potential results is to discuss starts and courses with the OA/RC of your club. If you have a close racing within a 10 boat Mosquito fleet it would be a shame to give that up. It also seem like you might have some leverage with the club if your fleet is the largest regular class.

Possible changes you might request to minimize encounters with other classes include:
- Adjust the length/duration/number of laps per race
- Use a different marks/courses
- Adjust the order of the starts based on speed of fleets

[Any other ideas?]

It could be that the OA/RC is simply not aware of the issues or aware that they could fix them to some degree by tweeking things. I would guess that they would be very willing to work with you to minimize overlap between the fleets as it would keep more people happy and coming back - - - which leads to more celebration at the club afterward.


C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189026
08/25/09 11:14 PM
08/25/09 11:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
it was a bad decision by the RC.


No, I still disagree.. it probably wasn't a bad call... would you have wanted to wait the extra 5 minutes so that the RC would start the lone Tornado on the long course? ... He paid his money as well... putting him on the short course would be no fun for him or the little boats either! His game was to sail the fastest he could around the track ... take his time and the first F18's and do his own math. You can't begrudge him that...
Everyone should have known that the Tornado is approx 59 and F18 approx 63... so about 3 minutes per hour difference. I would expect the Tornado to be in the mix around the course (The statment... No problem.. he will be long gone... means that they are very bad... or mike is very good or they are clueless). It probably took 5 to 7 minutes to finish the F18 OD fleet. Unless you paid extra for your separate start, I think the RC call was reasonable. We routinely have Hobie 17's (74 and and Hobie 18's (72) share the start line (10 to 15 boats) and race the same course and they are much closer in time.

Organizationally, The one issue is the OA who did not make the deal clear before anyone got in their car.... I would certainly not ding the PRO looking at the scratch sheet and going huh...what's the best way to maximize the fun factor for all of the racers.... not to mention safety concerns... putting the spin boat on the short course with the non spin boats would be err... less safe.

The second issue is bad sportsmanship... Pissing and moaning that he is on your course or in your way is just that bad sportsmanship (not saying that you were personally involved). JW related that Mike made the strategic move and jibed away in one instance... So the evidence suggests he was trying to go around the track as fast as he could.

The issue is one of expectations and sportsmanship... certainly not the judgment of the PRO.







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