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Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Mark Schneider] #189029
08/26/09 12:49 AM
08/26/09 12:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
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chrisun  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
it was a bad decision by the RC.


No, I still disagree.. it probably wasn't a bad call... would you have wanted to wait the extra 5 minutes so that the RC would start the lone Tornado on the long course?


Actually... it was a bad call.
Let me see if I convince you why...

Pt 1: Would you have wanted to wait so the RC could start the Tornado on the long course?

A: Not applicable here. The Tornado was originally scheduled to sail with the H18s and the H20 - short course. The T would have been finished and ready to go before the H18s and H20.
In any case, after the first start, subsequent starts were not constrained to waiting for all starts to finish before starting again. The only way the F-18s would have had to wait for the T to finish is if the T was sailing the same start...


Pt 2: His game was to sail fast and take his time against the first F18's and do his own math.

A: His game was to race Portsmouth, recruit another 4 T's for a class start, or recruit a class of like spinnaker boats to sail against. I don't know about you - but in my area of the country one typically gets on the phone and makes a few calls to encourage people to come out and race. The F-18 class did just this. Mike could have done likewise.
Secondly, no one was recording time for the F-18s, so the T would have to record his time and that of the F-18s in order to determine where he was finishing relative to the fleet.


Pt 3: Unless you paid extra for your separate start, I think the RC call was reasonable.

A: The F-18s paid for the regatta and showed up under the impression that they had paid for a class start. They also organized participation and travel to Santa Barbara as a class in order to race as a class. So they did more than just pay their entry fee. And they were promised more that just "a start". They were promised a class start.


Pt 4: Putting the spin boat on the short course with the non spin boats would be less safe.

A: What?


Pt 5: The issue is bad sportsmanship...

A: That's a ripe comment to make. If anything, the intention of the race organizer (who is a member of the F-18 fleet and was also a race participant) was to make the regatta enjoyable for Mike. However the results of this decision demonstrate that it didn't turn out this way. The truth is that it was eminently foreseeable that this wouldn't work out - ergo - NOT a good decision. Well intentioned - but not well practiced.


My recommendation to all race committees in a similar position is to stick to the advertised plan and not to repeat something similar to what happened here.

In truth I believe it was a bit of a set up for Mike. As far as I could tell he was OK sailing with the H18s and the H20. The RC probably should not have asked him what class he would like to sail with. Obviously it was no surprise that he might prefer to sail with more like boats - i.e. the F-18s. By the same token Mike might have anticipated that it wasn't a good idea to request this - which comes back to the earlier topic (several posts back).

And just as a final point - while there was some frustration among the F-18 fleet with the T being in the same start, and while Mike may have periodically felt somewhat unwelcomed sharing the start with the F-18 fleet - as far as I could tell everyone in attendance was glad to see each other on the water and off despite whatever technical issues arose on the water from an ill conceived management error.

Cheers,
Christopher

Last edited by chrisun; 08/26/09 01:32 AM.

C-Class USA75
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189031
08/26/09 03:07 AM
08/26/09 03:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
old hand
pepin  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
I'm sorry to say that you all F18 sailors who called Mike names or refused his ROW are wrong. You are struggling for excuses, you are trying to put the omen on the RC, but you are all flat wrong.

A boat is racing the same course as you, you are all bound by the same rules. It doesn't matter how the score is calculated. It doesn't even matter if he started at the same time as you. You *have* to extend to this odd duck the same sportsmanship you extend to your fellow F18. No excuses.

If you are not doing it, well, you're an butt. And you deserve being protested and disqualified. Hell, if you were real sailor you would disqualify yourself for poor sportmanship.

Mike is 100% right in being pissed off.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #189033
08/26/09 03:13 AM
08/26/09 03:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
old hand
pepin  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
Originally Posted by Darryn
[...]I have found over the last two years of sailing at that club the more waves I make the more my boat gets damaged in the rigging area and more anonomous threatening notes get stuck to my car windshield at the club.

Camera on the top of the mast. Camera in the car. Press criminal charges once you have proof. This is unacceptable behavior.

Heck, I understand why you want to change club.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: pepin] #189036
08/26/09 03:20 AM
08/26/09 03:20 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by pepin

A boat is racing the same course as you, you are all bound by the same rules. It doesn't matter how the score is calculated. It doesn't even matter if he started at the same time as you. You *have* to extend to this odd duck the same sportsmanship you extend to your fellow F18. No excuses.


A boat racing on a different course, overlapping your racing area, and you are still bound by the racing rules.

Originally Posted by Darryn
I have found over the last two years of sailing at that club the more waves I make the more my boat gets damaged in the rigging area and more anonomous threatening notes get stuck to my car windshield at the club.


I dont believe it, are you serious? I would be out of the club in an instant with a letter to the commodore (if there was alternative clubs). The bullys would win, but if members are like that I would not want to be part of it. Or I might try to be elected for the board..

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #189043
08/26/09 06:30 AM
08/26/09 06:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
D
Darryn Offline OP
addict
Darryn  Offline OP
addict
D

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
[
I dont believe it, are you serious? I would be out of the club in an instant with a letter to the commodore (if there was alternative clubs). The bullys would win, but if members are like that I would not want to be part of it. Or I might try to be elected for the board.. [/quote]

They just kept pushing their trailers or beach dollys into my boat, when I caught them doing it they were apologetic and claimed it was an accident but plenty of times I came back to my boat after changing into my wetsuit to find another trailer grinding away at my boat, so I started moving around the rigging area each week but the damage still followed my boat while other boats remained untouched.
One of the windshield notes told me if I wanted to stop the scratches and dings I should move my boat 30km south ( location of another club).
The commodore sails a Sharpie, never had a problem with him, I didn't mention the notes to anyone as I was hoping to hear of them from another source and backtrack them.

Its over now,

Darryn

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #189045
08/26/09 06:41 AM
08/26/09 06:41 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Darryn,

I am very sorry to hear your story. I hope the new club is better. Shame on those sailors at the old club (I have some other words I would like to use, but not here and now)!

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #189047
08/26/09 06:58 AM
08/26/09 06:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Darryn, you haven't lost a thing. Good sailing to you.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #189049
08/26/09 07:05 AM
08/26/09 07:05 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Darryn,I am appalled by your last post. That is not only poor sportsmanship, but that is criminal. I STRONGLY feel a letter to the commodore describing what happened (to your boat) and the notes. If nothing else, perhaps this would prevent it from happening to another sailor.

I am sorry you sail with such jerks..

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: ] #189050
08/26/09 07:08 AM
08/26/09 07:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
The commodore knows. . .and approves. wink


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #189052
08/26/09 07:19 AM
08/26/09 07:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Who's the club? Folks should know so they won't be put through the same grief.
I think I'd do a little careless dolly handling (directed at the proper targets) before I left. Yeah, I know 2 wrongs don't make a right,but it lowers blood pressure and prevents worse things from happening.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #189055
08/26/09 07:27 AM
08/26/09 07:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 75
Clearwater, FL
S
stevefisherkeller Offline
journeyman
stevefisherkeller  Offline
journeyman
S

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 75
Clearwater, FL
Sounds like a job for a $500.00 Hobie(no offence meant to Hobie), can you say dam the torpedoes "RAMMING SPEED", I'm willing to contibute $50.00 bucks to the Dull the Sharpie Campaign. Any one else?


Steve Fisherkeller
P19MX
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: stevefisherkeller] #189056
08/26/09 07:28 AM
08/26/09 07:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Get a TheMightyHobie18 for maximum effect.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #189057
08/26/09 07:31 AM
08/26/09 07:31 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



This is turning ugly...

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: ] #189061
08/26/09 07:40 AM
08/26/09 07:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 75
Clearwater, FL
S
stevefisherkeller Offline
journeyman
stevefisherkeller  Offline
journeyman
S

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 75
Clearwater, FL
Not if you yell "PORT" in a fiendly mannor, while giving the thumbs up as you sail over their bows. Thanks to kick up rudders it will only take a second or two drop them back down and look for another target in a "target rich environment"


Steve Fisherkeller
P19MX
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: pepin] #189062
08/26/09 07:47 AM
08/26/09 07:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
journeyman
chrisun  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by pepin
I'm sorry to say that you all F18 sailors who called Mike names or refused his ROW are wrong.


Where did you come up with this information? No one in the F-18 fleet called Mike names, nor did anyone in the F-18 fleet refuse Mike ROW.

If exasperation was expressed that Mike was sailing as a unscored boat along with the F-18 fleet, it was simply that. Allow me emphasize again that by asking to sail with the F-18 start, Mike gave up the opportunity to actually sail in a fleet where finish times were recorded and where he might have been able to at least have a handicap result. As it was, he instead chose to sail among the F-18s whose times were not recorded, and thus his time on course was not recorded.
He further put himself in the situation to affect the race outcome of the F-18 fleet - which did in fact happen. What was the point?! Really? It is not a question of bad sportsmanship - only a very realistic expression of a bad decision on the part of the race committee and also on the part of Mike by not seeing the non-sense in moving Mike to this start. I think this, and only this, is what the F-18 fleet was expressing.




C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189066
08/26/09 07:58 AM
08/26/09 07:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted by chrisun
Originally Posted by pepin
I'm sorry to say that you all F18 sailors who called Mike names or refused his ROW are wrong.


Where did you come up with this information? No one in the F-18 fleet called Mike names, nor did anyone in the F-18 fleet refuse Mike ROW.

If exasperation was expressed that Mike was sailing as a unscored boat along with the F-18 fleet, it was simply that. Allow me emphasize again that by asking to sail with the F-18 start, Mike gave up the opportunity to actually sail in a fleet where finish times were recorded and where he might have been able to at least have a handicap result. As it was, he instead chose to sail among the F-18s whose times were not recorded, and thus his time on course was not recorded.
He further put himself in the situation to affect the race outcome of the F-18 fleet - which did in fact happen. What was the point?! Really? It is not a question of bad sportsmanship - only a very realistic expression of a bad decision on the part of the race committee and also on the part of Mike by not seeing the non-sense in moving Mike to this start. I think this, and only this, is what the F-18 fleet was expressing.




Some simple questions..

1, Was Mike RACING - I belive the answer to be YES
2, Were the F18's RACING, I believe the answer to be yes

Thus BOTH Mike on the T and the F18s are bound by the RRS. POrt gives way to stbd; w to L etc...

Sounds like someone/people are tring to cover them selves are being idoits on the course; IF boats are racing; they obey the ruules or get DSQ. Simple.

As for Darren, Get outa there pronto with a letter to the Commadore. Where is this club, what is it called I'll not be joining.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: stevefisherkeller] #189067
08/26/09 07:59 AM
08/26/09 07:59 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by stevefisherkeller
Not if you yell "PORT" in a fiendly mannor, while giving the thumbs up


I tired yelling "PORT" at Parker last week... (as i cut in front of him). His responce was "I am on the phone" (and he was) hahaha...

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: pepin] #189070
08/26/09 08:04 AM
08/26/09 08:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by pepin
I'm sorry to say that you all F18 sailors who called Mike names or refused his ROW are wrong. You are struggling for excuses, you are trying to put the omen on the RC, but you are all flat wrong.

A boat is racing the same course as you, you are all bound by the same rules. It doesn't matter how the score is calculated. It doesn't even matter if he started at the same time as you. You *have* to extend to this odd duck the same sportsmanship you extend to your fellow F18. No excuses.

If you are not doing it, well, you're an butt. And you deserve being protested and disqualified. Hell, if you were real sailor you would disqualify yourself for poor sportmanship.

Mike is 100% right in being pissed off.


I see both sides of the story here...Port Starboard, room at the mark, etc. ABSOLUTELY they are due and nobody should or could argue otherwise. This is part of the deal with racing on a mixed course.

However, things change when the bigger boat, who is not formally being scored against, engages tactically with boats racing in a tight one-design race to the disadvantage of the smaller boat who doesn't even know he's in a battle. For starters, the larger boat has a performance advantage making a duel a loosing battle for the smaller boat and one they can not only win, but one they cannot escape. Even in a Portsmouth fleet, you don't typically get into these duels because it only serves to slow the big boat down and reduce the chance of getting the separation needed for the win. I can see how an F18 crew could be frustrated if there were these tactical battles happening with a Tornado while they were duking it out in their fleet.


Jake Kohl
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: scooby_simon] #189072
08/26/09 08:10 AM
08/26/09 08:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
journeyman
chrisun  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by scooby_simon


Some simple questions..

1, Was Mike RACING - I belive the answer to be YES
2, Were the F18's RACING, I believe the answer to be yes

Thus BOTH Mike on the T and the F18s are bound by the RRS. POrt gives way to stbd; w to L etc...

Sounds like someone/people are tring to cover them selves are being idoits on the course; IF boats are racing; they obey the ruules or get DSQ. Simple.


Wow.... I mean really.... Wow.

Please allow me to repeat what I just wrote:
"No one in the F-18 fleet called Mike names, nor did anyone in the F-18 fleet refuse Mike ROW."

Now, can I ask why Pepin and Scooby Simon want to claim the situation was otherwise? Nobody that was there has made the claims that P and SS have made here.

Respectfully,
Christopher

Last edited by chrisun; 08/26/09 08:33 AM.

C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: scooby_simon] #189075
08/26/09 08:32 AM
08/26/09 08:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
journeyman
chrisun  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by pepin
I'm sorry to say that you all F18 sailors ...[are] an butt. And you deserve being protested and disqualified. Hell, if you were real sailor you would disqualify yourself for poor sportmanship.


Originally Posted by scooby_simon

Sounds like someone/people are tring to cover them selves are being idoits


I can assure you that more name calling and unsportsmanlike behavior is going on here than occurred at the regatta. frown

Last edited by chrisun; 08/26/09 08:54 AM.

C-Class USA75
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