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Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189077
08/26/09 08:47 AM
08/26/09 08:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,291
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Chris, I think Mike has said he was fouled. I didn't see him get fouled, but clearly the guy has come away with a bad taste in his mouth and has lain that at the feet of our fleet, not the RC. I think we'll need to look at how to better handle this in the future and let this episode be a lesson-learned - there is no "win" in this case, IMO. I had no clue, having been there, that this issue would become a topic - the weather, racing, club and companionship at the event in every direction I looked seemed a success. It took over a week for someone to speak up about a dissatisfying element. Best part is, it is something that can be addressed.

Darryn - sorry for the tangential hijack. I agree with others who have recommended you move on from that club and quickly. I would document your reason for leaving, complete with the love notes, and write your regional sailing association and the Board of the club. Here in the US, that sort of letter does get read and taken seriously. Don't treat it as a parting shot, but think of it as building the case for the next guy who might be treated in an even more harsh manner or in the case real damage or injury is done. Good luck at your next venue, and here's hoping you find a fresh barrel of apples.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: John Williams] #189079
08/26/09 09:09 AM
08/26/09 09:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
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chrisun  Offline
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Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by John Williams
Chris, I think Mike has said he was fouled.


I don't think he said that here, and I didn't hear him say that at the event. In any case, who wasn't fouled. ;-)

Good topic. Nice advice to Darryn regarding the letter. However, I would not be so quick to suggest he leave the club before exploring option with the RC for better organization of the racing. A 10 boat one design fleet to race regularly with is pretty good incentive to look for other solutions first. I'm not saying that the Sharpie fleet is right in ignoring the rules, just that the RC - with a few suggestions - could be more proactive in insuring less fleet/fleet convergence on the course - specifically at mark roundings. After all that's part of doing a good job as an RC, and this approach potentially offers the most expedient solution.


C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189080
08/26/09 09:16 AM
08/26/09 09:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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I wasn't at this event, and only know a few of the people involved, but the RC-bashing really needs to stop.

While there are some things an RC can do, the reality is that once everyone is on the water, classes will get mixed on the course and need to sail per the RRS.

Yes, it is nice to be courteous to someone in a different fleet (and this often helps your own game), but to beat the dead horse about this being the RC's fault is really getting old.

Congrats to the organizers for running a great event and making lots of money for charity.

Mike

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: John Williams] #189081
08/26/09 09:30 AM
08/26/09 09:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
John

Quote
It took over a week for someone to speak up about a dissatisfying element.


Usually, these words are never spoken.... the tough issues are never addressed and the upset festers and is rarely resolved.

Usually the individuals just move on, sell their boat and leave the catamaran scene.

Haven't you noticed?

ps... anyone talk to the Hobie 20 guy... maybe his expectations were met... maybe not. but chances are... he is not back next year.

Depending on what the regions sailors want.. that is either a good thing or a bad thing.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: brucat] #189082
08/26/09 09:46 AM
08/26/09 09:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
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chrisun  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by brucat
I wasn't at this event, and only know a few of the people involved, but the RC-bashing really needs to stop.


The only thing the RC is being "bashed" for is for moving a Portsmouth boat out of the Portsmouth fleet and into the F-18 start.

Whose decision was that? Only the RC can make/made that decision, and it was a bad decision. It's a fair criticism.



Originally Posted by brucat

While there are some things an RC can do, the reality is that once everyone is on the water, classes will get mixed on the course and need to sail per the RRS.


No one is arguing that the RRS's don't need to be followed - and interestingly, only Pepin and Scooby-Simon, a couple of fellow cat sailors who were not at this regatta, are claiming that there was intentional violation of the RRS against Mike.

While the RC cannot keep boats from different classes from encountering each other on the water - they can act to minimize these encounters by working with course selection, starts and division breaks. In the case of the Santa Barbara regatta the RC could have avoided many of these issues simply by not taking the T out of it's fleet and putting in the same start as the F-18s.

I don't see this thread or my posts as RC bashing. I see it merely as a discussion of a situation best taken under consideration next time a similar decision is being made. In the Santa Barbara case, the decision to move the T to the F-18 start was made by the RC at the skippers meeting before racing started.

Mark raises an interesting question about the H20. I was concerned when the T was taken out of the Portsmouth fleet leaving the 20 with no one to sail against. However, I didn't have the opportunity to ask him directly if this affected his perception of the regatta.

Last edited by chrisun; 08/26/09 09:52 AM.

C-Class USA75
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Mark Schneider] #189088
08/26/09 10:42 AM
08/26/09 10:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
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Dan_Delave  Offline
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Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Quote
ps... anyone talk to the Hobie 20 guy... maybe his expectations were met... maybe not. but chances are... he is not back next year.

Depending on what the regions sailors want.. that is either a good thing or a bad thing.

I did talk with them and they are a really nice couple of guys that came down from the Bay area to sail. They knew that we did not have many 20s in the area and fully expected to sail in the Portsmouth fleet.

They knew that I sailed 20s for many years and asked me questions about tuning and rigging to help their cause, as they go back North to sail against other 20s. I was happy to help and we talked for close to an hour. They would have benefited if the Tornado was sailing with them so they could gauge their speed difference from day to day as they made some slight changes to the boat. I asked if they could tell any difference on Sunday and they thought they could but could not confirm it.

My feeling is they were more pleased about coming than not. I would expect (only my view, not from them) that to get them to participate next year would involve calling friends to make sure they had a class or at least some interesting Portsmouth boats.

It was a good regatta and really nice to have 12 Formula 18s on the line. I did not witness or hear about anyone not giving ROW on our fleet. I suspect that some may have asked Mike not to hurt their position if he could avoid it. I know and witnessed that Mike was very considerate on Sunday.

Dan

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Dan_Delave] #189090
08/26/09 11:06 AM
08/26/09 11:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Online content
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Chris,

My reply wasn't specifically directed at you, that's just how it shows up when you do a quick reply.

Your opinion is noted, you didn't like the setup. There may have been mitigating factors that "helped" the RC decide what to do.

My advice, let it go or step up and run it your way next year...

Mike

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189104
08/26/09 01:18 PM
08/26/09 01:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
old hand
Tornado  Offline
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Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by chrisun
Originally Posted by HMurphey
You are trying to justify poor sportsmanship by some F18 racers just because Mike was not on a F18 but was officially in their class.

Harry Murphey



because he asked to start with the F-18s instead of with the (2 boat) Portsmouth fleet he was scored against no one.


Just to clarify...I never "asked" to be in the F18 fleet...I asked the RC what fleet I would be in....and was prepared to go with the H20 and the 3 or 4 TheMightyHobie18's...then there was a suggestion thrown out from the crowd to have the T race in the F18 fleet and seconded by several voices at the meeting (I presume F18 skips). As I've said, I was appreciative of that as it meant we'd be with the most similar performance boats.

At no point in the meeting was I asked/told to not actually race other boats. And it wasn't exactly clear what the scoring was going to be...I pointed out to the RC if they were thinking of handicapping the races, they'd need to time all the boats in the race and that would be a lot of effort..."just do what's easiest" I said. Then I heard someone suggesting to take my time & a boat or two ahead and behind me to work out the handicap. That's about where the meeting broke up and it was never spelled out precisely how it was going to work. After seeing the score sheet the next day it was clear I was separately scored.

This didn't change our approach...we were in the race, so we raced.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Tornado] #189112
08/26/09 01:46 PM
08/26/09 01:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Well, there you have it. A simple misunderstanding. We really should talk more at events.


Jake Kohl
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Jake] #189115
08/26/09 02:10 PM
08/26/09 02:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Funny you say that Jake

Just to remind everyone of the last time this kind of issue came up was this year's Spring Fever regatta.

The NOR was equally uninformative....So, I started the How do you split the fleets discussion... How do you score it.
BEFORE THE REGATTA and BEFORE YOU STARTED DRIVING

Lots of spears were tossed in my direction ... the deal was.. Racing was left up to the PRO/RC... cause we trust him to support the OD fleet racing. ...

The final outcome.
The RC started the F18's racing their Southern Championship with the 10 boat Nacra 20 fleet around the same course.

The only real difference between the two events (SF and W&R) was people's expectations and whether those expectations were met or not.

Bottom Line.... Set the expectation level with the NOR and SI... Deliver the goods = no upset.

Take on really finding out if expectations were met. It's tough to get the real scoop... just the usual happy talk.

Also... you need some idea region wide of what to do with the odd ball boats. It's too late to decide it at the skippers meeting.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #189123
08/26/09 03:38 PM
08/26/09 03:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 126
Southampton UK
NacraKid Offline
member
NacraKid  Offline
member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 126
Southampton UK
Protest them under rule 12 (port startboard) when u have a p/s incident. They are pretty hard to get out of if they are wrong, they should hopefully lose that.
Numbers dont mean anything, there should only be one of thier crew in the protest room. Protest the rc and protest comitee if theyre leeting more in.

And if they threaten you any more or tell you to gte lost protest them under rule 69 and get them banned from sailin

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: NacraKid] #189142
08/26/09 09:28 PM
08/26/09 09:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline OP
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Darryn  Offline OP
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Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
http://www.adelaidesailingclub.com.au/
Club name and website above for those who asked.

Who do you protest when you receive anonymous threats?

I talked to the race committee several times, change is not on their agenda. At one of the meetings I participated in, some very simple changes were put forward to simplify Sailing Instructions so that visitors and new members wouldn't waste there first few races at the club trying to find their way around the course. The nay sayers argument was, "we cant change because we have never done it that way" proposal was almost unanimously defeated.

I'm not interested in a "parting shot" in my experience while they may agree to fix the problem the reality is they actually wont. Besides, I'm told they are reading this thread so going back there now just isn't an option.

Anyway, I think we have flogged my situation to death so tangent away.

Darryn


Last edited by Darryn; 08/26/09 09:30 PM.
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: Darryn] #189154
08/27/09 01:12 AM
08/27/09 01:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Darryn,


I understand your issues.

If the club you ARE leaving have any guts they might try and defend them selves; however, it does not sound like they can.

If I was a member of that club; I would be leaving. It sounds to me like the management have lost control of the whole situation.

Threats and intimidation is not part of the game....

Good luck with your new club.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: chrisun] #189158
08/27/09 04:11 AM
08/27/09 04:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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pepin  Offline
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Posts: 976
France
Originally Posted by chrisun
Originally Posted by John Williams
Chris, I think Mike has said he was fouled.
I don't think he said that here, and I didn't hear him say that at the event.


Usage of [censored] language and verbal intimidation are foul. Read rule 2 again. And that took place:

Quote
It was not so terrific to discover out on the race course that I wasn't "really" racing and to hear "Get the [censored] out of our way!" on a port/starboard cross (me on starboard again); "Keep off our wind...We're racing!"; "Don't get 'competitive' with us on the start!" ; etc. etc.

Re: Applying the Rules. [Re: pepin] #189267
08/27/09 02:26 PM
08/27/09 02:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Vancouver, BC
A few more clarifications:

1. weeks prior to the event the OA encouraged me to attend, thinking that 2 or possibly 3 I20's were likely to attend. I was also in communication with two I20's that expressed interest...but none of these ultimately materialized...the "herding cats" image springs to mind.

2. In all the incidents I have referred to, I was not a victim of blatant on the water fouls like had happened to the OP with the mono fleet. At issue here is the verbal swearing and intimidation that occurred by SOME teams in the F18 fleet. Yes, this is technically a sportsmanship foul.

I believe over the course of the 7 races I started in, there was one actual foul against me shortly after the start. We had (another) lousy start, getting stuck behind 2 or 3 F18's, one of which was over early and created a parking lot off the line. By the time the jam cleared and we crossed, a port tacker was coming at us and there was no way he'd clear us. It was too late for him to do much, I luffed hard head to wind and loudly expressed my frustration with "Come on guys!"...They were quite apologetic was they went by, saying something like "Sorry, we'll buy you a beer later". While it would have been nice to see him take a penalty to be "Fair" to me and even his other competitors, at least the attitude he presented smoothed out my feelings. Had his attitude been indifferent or worse, I might have resorted to a protest.

At the Commodre's Classic Regatta put on by MHRA MHRA at Huntington Lake a few months back, there was one start for all classes (12 H20's, 2 Tornado's, 1 I20, 3/4 N5.8, 5.2's, 4 A-class plus other random cats). All but the 20's were Portsmouth-scored together...all started together and sailed the same course. Racing was tight with lots of crossings up & down wind on the multiple zig-zag course up the somewhat narrow lake. There was even hundreds of dollars worth of sponsor prizes on the line (MauiJim Sunglasses to the winners)...so it wasn't a beer can event. All boats, regardless of fleets and scoring implications, kept it civil and it was a wonderful event...best I have been to in many years. Maybe it was the spectacular scenary and 7000ft elevation that helped?

[Linked Image]


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
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