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Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... #192164
09/28/09 09:12 AM
09/28/09 09:12 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



I was racing on sat at the Dunedin marina... rumor has it marine patrol is going to do a sweep at the Dunedin causeway and ticket unregistered boats... this is all hearsay.. but ...

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: ] #192165
09/28/09 09:14 AM
09/28/09 09:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
I heard they were just targeting one boat. But that's just a rumor.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: David Ingram] #192167
09/28/09 09:24 AM
09/28/09 09:24 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by David Ingram
I heard they were just targeting one boat. But that's just a rumor.
And who is the lucky "one boat" ... i hope not me... smile

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: ] #192168
09/28/09 09:27 AM
09/28/09 09:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Rumors, they are never rich with details.

Wildcat is jonny law free. Could be a good excuses to test the waters elsewhere.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: David Ingram] #192228
09/29/09 08:25 AM
09/29/09 08:25 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



and it just gets worse, after reaching the previous ower of my cat.. he passed on this story about a different boat he sold to someone.. The new owner tried to sell it recently...

"Darts have no Hull Identification Number (HIN), none of them. After a few dozen phone calls I learned that to get a HIN you must get inspected by a Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission (FWC) agent. The guy who came to look at the Dart down at Gulfport was stereotypical law enforcement guy - flak jacket with sidearm. He interrogated the seller with intense detail, finally revealing that they were working from the angle that this boat is a stolen boat. He was not hearing that Darts NEVER have HINs nor the historical fact that few cats carry titles. The seller was told that this CRIMINAL investigation would be sent to Tallahassee in 4-6 weeks and perhaps they would offer a HIN but more likely they would pursue old records to identify all owners and the original importer, since the boat came from England long ago. The FWC guy said it could take 4-6 months to work out. The seller is despondent about losing his out-of-state buyer and considers his boat a total loss. The FWC guy also informed DMV and said that action flagged The seller and this boat from any further ownership transfer"

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: ] #192250
09/29/09 10:50 AM
09/29/09 10:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Ft Myers Beach, FL
walkefmb Offline
journeyman
walkefmb  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Ft Myers Beach, FL
I think I'm going to do a homebuild thing present receipts for the new gear etc, west marine receipts for epoxy and such misc. junk and just present it as a new build My tornado has no id other than sail numbers so that should avoid most of these horror stories. I have a Coast Guard station at the foot of the bridge to the island here and the new Homeland Security Nor-tec vessels have been out practicing on us. We've been stopped twice on the same day twice now. Yes, different crews, no, not on the cat but a whaler heavily armed with 9 to 6 year olds and all of their attendant fish slaying gear.

Last edited by walkefmb; 09/29/09 10:57 AM.

cedar tornado classic,
sunfish,
1972 morgan 27
optidad
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: ] #192260
09/29/09 12:25 PM
09/29/09 12:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
enthusiast
Cheshirecatman  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Originally Posted by andrewscott


"Darts have no Hull Identification Number (HIN), none of them.



Open the inspection ports and look for the numbers written on the inside of the hulls in marker pen!!! These should be traceable.

If you still have problems you could try here: http://www.dart18.com/contacts.htm

Cheshirecatman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: walkefmb] #192262
09/29/09 12:36 PM
09/29/09 12:36 PM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by walkefmb
I think I'm going to do a homebuild thing present receipts for the new gear etc, west marine receipts for epoxy and such misc. junk and just present it as a new build My tornado has no id other than sail numbers so that should avoid most of these horror stories.


i think if you get caught, the repercussions may be severe... i am sure this is gonna be a PITA, but i have to be legal.

i was told by one person, they can seize your boat if you can't prove ownership... and i was just told a story about a local sailor trying to fake numbers and ... it didnt end well for him...

Quote
We've been stopped twice on the same day twice now. Yes, different crews, no, not on the cat but a whaler heavily armed with 9 to 6 year olds and all of their attendant fish slaying gear.


sorry to hear, but happy you haven't been on a cat.
I think the key words above are ... "not on the cat"

Last edited by andrewscott; 09/29/09 02:02 PM.
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: ] #192268
09/29/09 01:39 PM
09/29/09 01:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 57
Q
Quarath Offline
journeyman
Quarath  Offline
journeyman
Q

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 57
if 1985 or older sellers should list they're boat in Utah where 1985 and older don't need a title. Not sure on HIN as mine had them so I used em. You may have to concede some loss on helping get it to the buyer but better than writing it off.

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: Quarath] #192273
09/29/09 02:29 PM
09/29/09 02:29 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 117
Atlanta, GA
KentHobie Offline
member
KentHobie  Offline
member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 117
Atlanta, GA
The real solution to this is to work through a sailor in the legislature. The Fish and Wildlife people are just cogs in the machine. The law needs to be changed. There has to be someone in the state legislature that would understand this and be willing to gain some friends for correcting a law that really makes no sense. If they really need these boats registered then they need to understand that most of the older boats in this class of boats never had a title.

How many stolen boats are out there anyway?


Kent
1988 H16
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: KentHobie] #192291
09/29/09 03:32 PM
09/29/09 03:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Ft Myers Beach, FL
walkefmb Offline
journeyman
walkefmb  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Ft Myers Beach, FL
This really puts a sand spur in my shorts! Since my irresponsible days are loooonnnng past I 've made every effort to comply fully with ALL of the applicable laws on land and sea. Now I feel as if I have no good options because my boat really has no identifying numbers whatsoever and has never had any papers issued. Reading the bs at myflorida.gov makes it look like my only option is to claim "home build'. One of our local sheriff deputies repeatedly has scared the cr#p out of me when he comes to admire the boat on his occasional rides down our street. He only recently heard about this because he wants an electric motor for a flats skiff he's had for a long time and he too has no HID. He's buying a nice carbon push pole instead to fix his problem. Lee county still claims a title is necessary but yearly registration is not. So the upshot of the whole thing is still stupid. The nice lady at an unnamed local tax office said to 'not bother with it, we haven't done anything like that yet.' This answer really shocked me since in my studies of the county, fwc, and the state guidelines i found out that lee county has the most registered type 1 or whatever 16-26 foot vessels are in the state. I also found out that antique motorcycles are more expensive to register that antique cars. Just baffling.

Since this tornado has no hull id number and has clearly been used for years, I can't see any other way to go


cedar tornado classic,
sunfish,
1972 morgan 27
optidad
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: KentHobie] #192296
09/29/09 04:11 PM
09/29/09 04:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by KentHobie
The real solution to this is to work through a sailor in the legislature. The Fish and Wildlife people are just cogs in the machine. The law needs to be changed. There has to be someone in the state legislature that would understand this and be willing to gain some friends for correcting a law that really makes no sense. If they really need these boats registered then they need to understand that most of the older boats in this class of boats never had a title.

How many stolen boats are out there anyway?


This is really the only answer. Perhaps we get the e-mail addresses for all the rep's and start bombarding them with our stories. Then call the local news teams to do stories on it. That's the only way your going to get someone to notice. This is the kind of thing we need to communicate to the law makers.

This is really about getting tax dollars on the sale of a boat. They won't give you a title unless the previous owner will sign a notarized bill of sale. Now how do you do that if you bought it 12 years ago and titles were not necessary. A lot of people buy these things with a hand shake. I was told someone who frequents this site sold the above dart and won't sign the bill of sail so this dart owner could sell this boat without much hassle. If that's true, I wish he would explain to us why.




Have Fun
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: Cheshirecatman] #192302
09/29/09 05:43 PM
09/29/09 05:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Originally Posted by Cheshirecatman
Originally Posted by andrewscott


"Darts have no Hull Identification Number (HIN), none of them.



Open the inspection ports and look for the numbers written on the inside of the hulls in marker pen!!! These should be traceable.



The Dart 18 in question DOES have numbers hand written on the inside of the hull and the officer was shown these numbers and they matched what was on the Bill of Sale. However, Dart only hand writes a 4 digit number. Since 1972 all boats registered in the US have to have a long specific sequence of numbers etched onto the outside. The 4 digit scribble didn't appease him.

Dart folks from NE U.S., do any of you have hull numbers? How did they ever get Darts into the USA? Smuggled in across the Canadian border? Filled with illegal Canadians?



Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: David Parker] #192303
09/29/09 05:48 PM
09/29/09 05:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Homebuilt idea? The officer investigating the Dart made a very pointed comment that the boat was clearly professionally built and not homebuilt. He was very aware that claiming homebuilt was one way to get a fresh HIN and was not going to allow that. It was never suggested that the Dart was homebuilt.

Etch your own? I was told by Fish and Wildlife that etching your own was a felony and would definitely be prosecuted.

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: David Parker] #192307
09/29/09 06:03 PM
09/29/09 06:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
old hand
ncik  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Get in contact with US Sailing, this should be their responsibility to sort out, they are your advocates. It'll be easier for them as a group to put pressure on the powers that be.

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: David Parker] #192308
09/29/09 06:20 PM
09/29/09 06:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
The US Dart Importer was a fellow by the name of Brian Kology, Sailsports ltd. I believe his business was in New Hampshire but he has not been involved with Darts for at least 15 years. If he sold a boat out of state (eg me) he just needed a release for his own business tax waiver. It was up to my state to collect it's sales tax. Since there was no reason to title the boat with the state... Never a problem.

Brian might have names of the original owner but that won't help much since no one will want to take ownership temporarily or verify that the boat has never been stolen in it's lifetime. It's a catch 22!

The last class pres sails out of Tampa, ... perhaps he has some thoughts.

Marstrom Tornado's have the same problem, Jill Nickerson Daniel of Fun in the Sun can tell you how Marstrom dealt with this one.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: ncik] #192312
09/29/09 07:30 PM
09/29/09 07:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by ncik
Get in contact with US Sailing, this should be their responsibility to sort out, they are your advocates. It'll be easier for them as a group to put pressure on the powers that be.


Uh, no. This is a state-by-state problem, not a United States issue. US Sailing doesn't have the resources to be boat registration ombudsmen in 50 different states.

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: mbounds] #192334
09/30/09 07:48 AM
09/30/09 07:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
I was talking to a friend about this and I haven't checked into it but I believe it's possible to Document our boats. You are required to display the name and hailing port of the vessel and a federal tax sticker but no state numbers. It removes the state from having jurisdiction over the vessel. Anyone know more about this?


Have Fun
Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: catman] #192338
09/30/09 08:14 AM
09/30/09 08:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Interesting question. I know we have documented cruising boats, but I don't know about small boats.

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... [Re: Mary] #192339
09/30/09 08:47 AM
09/30/09 08:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
old hand
NCSUtrey  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
He does raise an interesting point. My cruiser (33' monohull) isn't registered in SC, but instead is registered with the US Coast Guard.
A boat broker should be able to confirm if this is a possibility for a small cat.


Trey
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