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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: sailfast] #196111
11/12/09 11:10 PM
11/12/09 11:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
HJS Offline OP
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HJS  Offline OP
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Vic, Australia
Thumbs up Francis!!! You have hit the nail on the head.

AHPC no doubt could build a production F16 quite a bit lighter... possibly even to the minimum weight. But to retain the positive attributes such as sniffness that the Viper currently has it would need to have a lot more CARBON in the construction - including Carbon Beams and mast..... This would definitely add dollars. Just look at the cost of an A-Class!!! Do you really want your boats to cost MORE than an A-Cat?

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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: HJS] #196119
11/13/09 03:40 AM
11/13/09 03:40 AM
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Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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Originally Posted by HJS
Thumbs up Francis!!! You have hit the nail on the head.

AHPC no doubt could build a production F16 quite a bit lighter... possibly even to the minimum weight. But to retain the positive attributes such as sniffness that the Viper currently has it would need to have a lot more CARBON in the construction - including Carbon Beams and mast..... This would definitely add dollars. Just look at the cost of an A-Class!!! Do you really want your boats to cost MORE than an A-Cat?


My boat is mosly Carbon, and did not cost more than an A class; in fact it was almost 1/2!


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: scooby_simon] #196121
11/13/09 04:16 AM
11/13/09 04:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
HJS Offline OP
journeyman
HJS  Offline OP
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Vic, Australia
Who built your boat?

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: HJS] #196126
11/13/09 07:05 AM
11/13/09 07:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by HJS
Who built your boat?


Stealth Marine in the UK.

Standard Stealth Marine Carbon / Kevlar construction which inclused carbon mast

The only extra I have is carbon beams


Last edited by scooby_simon; 11/13/09 10:12 AM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: scooby_simon] #196134
11/13/09 08:57 AM
11/13/09 08:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I was told the Vipers are being built somewhere in Asia?

Perhaps they could be built lighter with tighter quality control in the layups?

I have been told that when doing production line type hulls they usually come up heavy as it takes much longer to squeege out any extra resin? I really don't know anything about it (Viper production), but that's what I was told.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196146
11/13/09 10:11 AM
11/13/09 10:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 10
France
S
sailfast Offline
stranger
sailfast  Offline
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S

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Posts: 10
France
Hi,
i don't want go in a no way discussion, like we said in French "avec des si on mettrait Paris en bouteille"

I try to neither listen rumor, and speak only what i know, and what i see.

I don't believe to miracle, light, stiff, not expensive have a limit.

For have some ideas

a Viper hull is approximatly 10 kg heavyer than an A class carbone one.
An F18 hull is approximatly 20 kg heavyer than a Viper one.

Now, do you feel hull are heavy ?

I could said Viper is really stiff on sailing, try it if you want ...
but also a Viper is realy strong, customers have already hit a rock at important speed (spinaker and trapeze in 2-up)
daggerboard are a litlle short now ;-) but hulls haven't dammaged. (don't try it)
This day, he doesn't think about weight of his boat, but only broken or not ?

I could jump with my 90 kg on a Viper daggerboard without risk, i don't break it and flex is little.
I couldn't made the same on my A class.
Yes, my A class daggerboard isn't so heavy than my Viper one, and it's strange but my F18 daggerboard is too more heavy than the other ;-)

So a stiff boat, with stiff beams, with stiff rudders, with stiff daggerboards, with epoxy glass build for hulls, etc .... are choices.

These choices give a Viper with his weight, and his price.
And a Viper is a really fast boat and not so expensive, so why change something, all are happy, the mixture give a good result.















Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: sailfast] #196150
11/13/09 10:29 AM
11/13/09 10:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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That is always the trade off, heavy and strong or light and not as strong when you run it aground. In the F16 class you have many options, including building your own boat, which I think is great for the class. And as we see at this GC, the little extra weight the Viper may cary has not slowed them down at all. It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196187
11/13/09 03:42 PM
11/13/09 03:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
HJS Offline OP
journeyman
HJS  Offline OP
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Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
Spot on Timbo.

However, I do think the F16 association really needs to address the weight issue.

For the association to grow, you need the production boat manufacturers onside. Manufacturers who can build 50+ boats a year like Bimare, AHPC... and maybe even NACRA and Hobie.

The minimum weight limit is very, very difficult for these guys to achieve. The boat needs to be affordable, but still ensure that there is sufficient markup to market, distribute and warranty the boat... (not to mention give free advice and feed their own families!)

I know Greg Goodall has made the conscious decision NOT to build the Viper in carbon, or use higher tech strategies as he knows that if he put an optimized VIPER on the water with the cost.... who knows... then this would probably dishearten all those weekend warriors and probably have a devastating impact on the F16 class.

He, probably more than any one of you, wants the F16 class to survive and grow... It gives him a target market to sell his boats...

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: HJS] #196189
11/13/09 03:56 PM
11/13/09 03:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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OK, the part I don't get, maybe I'm slow, is where raising the min wt. will grow the class. The class can vote to outlaw carbon fiber hulls, masts, beams, what ever, and I surely do not want to see it go to a Marstrom All Carbon arms race, that will price most of us right out of the class, in fact that is the only thing keeping me from the A class right now, but I have no problem keeping the min wt. right where it is now, and I have not heard -any- F16 Class Members wanting it raised, only a few non-class members.

They are all welcome to join the class, pay their dues, and put it to a vote.

Are you saying it is "Impossible" to mass produce the boat to the present minimum weight? So what's the problem? Get as close as you can.

So who should pick the minumum wt? Some builder in Asia??

Wouter, where did the present minimum wt. come from when you guys wrote the original rules? Was it from the Taipan wooden homebuilts?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196195
11/13/09 05:03 PM
11/13/09 05:03 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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The min. weight came from experience and setting a goal, as pointed out several times in other threads.

HJS, I dont know who you are, and I would like to know. Please give us a presentation.

We had a nasty and provoking persona under the "nom du guerre" of Sue here last year. Since then strangers with controversial opinions on our class rules and absolutely no buy-in or connection to the class are pointed in direction of the membership entry form and the proper way to instigate changes in the class rules. You are certainly free to discuss F16s, sailing etc. but when you begin to argument for a change in our class rules repeatedly please become a member and set about changes the proper way.

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Sorry if you find this rude, but there are valid historical reasons for asking for presentation.

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196197
11/13/09 05:35 PM
11/13/09 05:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I was told the Vipers are being built somewhere in Asia?

Perhaps they could be built lighter with tighter quality control in the layups?

I have been told that when doing production line type hulls they usually come up heavy as it takes much longer to squeege out any extra resin? I really don't know anything about it (Viper production), but that's what I was told.


The Viper is built in a top class facility with very highly skilled workers, the output is a top quality product and I would rank this facilty as one of the very best in the world. The methods used to build the Viper are such that quality lamination is ensured, As is consistent weight outputs.


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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: scooby_simon] #196199
11/13/09 05:39 PM
11/13/09 05:39 PM
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
My boat is mosly Carbon, and did not cost more than an A class; in fact it was almost 1/2!


Simon, from the above statement and the fact that your boat has cabon beams... can we assume that your boat weighs the same as an A class?? I mean: you have a Kite and associated gear so I will give you 5kg allowance for that, but your boat is 2 feet shorter than and A class. So I expect your boat will weigh in at ... say 80kg??

Or is your boat built with the special heavy weight carbon??


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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196200
11/13/09 05:48 PM
11/13/09 05:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Tim,



You might like to ask the top 3 if they think the extra 20kg on the Vipers makes the boat any less exciting...

You should also ask those top 3 if they think the racing would be any better if the boats were all 107kg?


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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: sailfast] #196209
11/13/09 06:59 PM
11/13/09 06:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

I could jump with my 90 kg on a Viper daggerboard without risk, i don't break it and flex is little.



We did that to a 1.6 kg Blade F16 daggerboard as made by www.catamaranparts.nl with exactly the same result.

If some designers want to add lots of weight to be extra certain then that is their call, but don't fool anybody that this is NECESSARY.

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196210
11/13/09 07:10 PM
11/13/09 07:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

Wouter, where did the present minimum wt. come from when you guys wrote the original rules? Was it from the Taipan wooden homebuilts?



Commericially build and sold plain glass and alu aipan 4.9 = 102 kg

Quite a few Taipans were measured in the range 102-103 kg around 2000.

Spinnaker package can be made for low cost at 5 kg.

Combined they produce 107 kg minimum weight.

I have never heard of Taipans being fragile boat or use exotic materials like carbon fibre or even epoxy resin.

Therefor one can commerically build and sell an F16 at 107 kg min weight in sloop atire.

Well build homebuilds also came in at around 105 kg ex spinnaker.

Now it may be the case that trading off some weight against additional stiffness will make the boat faster overall. But that is of no importance for the class rules. A safe and reasonable prized F16 can be build for 107 kg and that is uncontested. It is up to be buyer whether he or she believes stifness is more important then being lightweight.

And if more weight + more stiffness is faster then why b!tch about the minimum weight at all. You got the faster boat and the lighter ones are disadvantaged relative to you, right ?

With respect to cost. I believe the all carbon Stealth F16 is still cheaper then the most basic glass/alu Viper. There is only so much one can do with class rules; local economic conditions may favour different solutions.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/13/09 07:15 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Wouter] #196213
11/13/09 07:46 PM
11/13/09 07:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 201
Adelaide South Australia
R
ratherbsailing Offline
enthusiast
ratherbsailing  Offline
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R

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 201
Adelaide South Australia
80% of Commercial built Taipans have Kevlar in the hulls.

Is this an exotic product?

My Timber Taipan F16 was never officially measured but when I weighed it at home with everything it weighed 102kg.

Last edited by ratherbsailing; 11/13/09 07:48 PM.


Re: Another F16 Blast. [Re: HJS] #196215
11/13/09 08:17 PM
11/13/09 08:17 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
EXCELLENT SAILING CHRIS & GEORGINA.
I hope you'll be able to make it to some of our TT's etc next year.
Mark


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196218
11/13/09 08:44 PM
11/13/09 08:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Timbo
It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Tim,



You might like to ask the top 3 if they think the extra 20kg on the Vipers makes the boat any less exciting...

You should also ask those top 3 if they think the racing would be any better if the boats were all 107kg?


Macca, all I need to ask them is if they want the minimum wt. raised and I'm pretty sure they will say, "Why?". Until I hear a good reason, I'm not inclined to vote in favor of it. When did you join the class anyway?

If you are a member, you can vote yes, after you write up a resolution and present it. And then all the lighter Taipan guys will be pissed.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196221
11/13/09 09:08 PM
11/13/09 09:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
I for one, (not being an F16 owner), view the minimum weight being where it is to be a draw to the class for me. Nothing to do with performance even, its just because I don't like dragging a 325lb boat up the beach by myself.

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #196223
11/13/09 09:27 PM
11/13/09 09:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Phile Offline
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Phile  Offline
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South Australia
I miss Sue......

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