Not entirely, the ruddersetup was straight off the Capricorn that by that time was several years old as a design.

The daggerboards where shorter in overall length then the Capricorn but otherwise the same.

These components were much less in their prototype stage then one may think. Same with regard to the mast section and mainsail (all developped in the Taipan 4.9 class). The beams, selftacker and snuffer systems were standard from the Capricorn but shortened to F16 length. The overall boat layout is a Capricorn copy.

The only items truly new (as being a prototype) were the jib, the spinaker and the hulls.

The Viper at the 2007 GC was indeed 134 kg due to extensive repairs having been performed on its hulls. Fork lift drivers at the Rotterdam harbour did a "smashing job of unloading the crate". This was the measurement of a 2-up sloop version that AHPC now quotes as being 129 kg. See the following link :

http://www.ahpc.com.au/Brett_Viper.htm

Apparently this 2007 "prototype" was pretty close to the final end product. As it should be considering the known components it uses from other designs.


With regard to the GC 2009. I think the crews sailing these Vipers had all to do with the final scoring. Just look at the following listing.

Robbie Daniels former international Tornado compaigner and professional sailor/sail coach/trainer
John Casey Professional catamaran sailor, Twice alter Cup champion when sailing F16's
Greg Goodall International A-cat and F18 campaigner/sailmaker; professional boatbuilder/sailmaker
Olli Jason (Aspiring) professional sailor/F18 campaigner trained/coached by Robbie Daniels
Brett Goodall Australian F16 champion 2009 and born and raised into established sailor/builder family

Note that the McDonalds sailed very well on their Falcon F16 but scoring 5 dnf/dns kills their overall result. In the other races they finished on average at the 5th place and they won the last race. This also disproofs an earlier claim that only Viper CREWS won races at this GC. The McD's back up this win with 2 additional 2nd place finishes in the preceding races 13 and 14. So their win was not some lucky outlier, they were already knocking on the door so to say. Note that the McD's are not a team of international fame or professional sailors; respectfully speaking, they are at their core a husband and wife team.

Of course Andi Lutz and Martin Schori (also not professional sailors) did very well on a borrowed VWM Blade F16; at home they sail a difference beast (a F18HT). John Casey for example just did a week long "training course" on the Viper at the Alter Cup event 2 weeks ago.

I argue that their is ample indication that the make-up of Viper crews was important in achieving the final results as we have them now. That and the fact that the Viper contingent was almost half the total fleet and that it is beyond any doubt a very capable design. These factors certainly didn't hold any of these crews back.


With kind regards,

Wouter

Nonsense! Matt finally remembered to tighten all the bits on the Falcon and pulled a first and two seconds on Saturday. He and Robbie D. were half a mile* ahead of the rest of the sloops in the first race. Ed Mills, was third sailing Uni on a Blade and also had a very respectable lead on the rest of the pack. That includes JC and Gregg. There are just too many variables on the race course to say one boat is better than another.

What amazes me is how close they all are!

Imo however, Goodall sails got it all over Glaser!

*I spoke with Gordon Isco on Friday night. When the weather mark is right in front of the condos, the course is .94 miles. Robbie finished the first race on Saturday by a margin of half the spinnaker leg, Matt/Gina were 10-20 seconds behind and Ed about the same behind them.

Hey Macca, just for you I asked a "financially disinterested" 3rd party sailor if he thought the min. wt. should be raised. His response? "Why?"

I think you may know him, he's usually on a F18 but has won two Alter Cups on F16's...

He went on to say, "It's a development class, let it develop, raising the min. wt. isn't going to encourage that, and the F18's could easily be built lighter as well..."

I could not corner Greg G. or Robie D. as everyone was very busy breaking down boats and running about but I think Robi got them in his interviews.

The lightest boat to weigh in was a Taipan, right at min. wt.

Robi has some video interviews he will post when able. Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time and effort to do that Robi.

Wow…. I am amazed at how a simple thread can turn into such a fiasco.

In response to Wouter… I think you need to give the Viper some credit… After all, there were 2 people on all of these boats! I thought I would just add a few notes to get things back into perspective.

Robbie Daniels former international Tornado campaigner and professional sailor/sail coach/trainer – Who was sailing with 14 year old Taylor….. He did a great job, but doesn’t have an international standing…. YET!

John Casey Professional catamaran sailor, Twice alter Cup champion when sailing F16's – Who paired up with Dalton especially for the regatta – Not sure whether they had ever sailed together before.

Greg Goodall International A-cat and F18 campaigner/sailmaker; professional boatbuilder/sailmaker – Who met his Crew, Kelly just before the regatta. Kelly is normally the SKIPPER.

Brett Goodall Australian F16 champion 2009 and born and raised into established sailor/builder family – Is a damned good crew, but has not had a huge amount of time at the helm. He met his crew, Matt, 2 days before the regatta…. And just for the record, he is NOT the current Australian F16 champion.

Also – I must admit, the Wind Gods did make it easier on the Viper as it does love the wind.

Oh… And for the “heavy weight” argument – I see that 12th Place went to Chris Prentice and Dan Krueger… I think these guys would be 400+ Ibs (180+ Kgs)!!

Ohh,

Who is the current Aussie F16 champion then ?

Wouter

James McDonald and Lee Thorn.

For more details, check the link http://www.ahpc.com.au/Brett_News13-04-09.htm

I'm not at all amazed, everyone seems to spout off at the slightest provocation like male balerinas challenged for the lead principals role by the directors over weight, untalented wannabee lead principal, girlfriend. Couple that with the likes of the Aussie thread baiters such as Macca and you get a thread just like this.

Anyway this is what computer forums are all about, people can sit behind their screen in the safety of their own home and say what they like. Unfortunately this leads to all sorts of tantrums and accusations which if said in a bar would have a whole different outcome.

Take the recent spat on Sailing Anarchy with Doug Lord, ended up with the most open and sickest of all forums banning a poster, take care Wout with your forum history, you will be entirely blamed for this discussion and how it could have such a major baring on the future of the F16 class

HJS, the points you made just above about the skippers, as I said much earlier in this train wreck, they are so good they can pick up cew the day before the regatta and still win easily. I give all credit to the sailors, it's not the boat, it's the sailors. Especially in big wind, 5 days and 15 races, the cream rises to the top.

You still have to sail well no matter what type boat you are on. The top guys are at the top for a reason and that reason is -not- the type of boat, or the weight of the boat, or even the sails they use, they simply know how to sail beter than the rest of us. I'm just glad they show up and are willing to share their speed secrets with us.

Let's all agree on that and move on.

What I like most about this sport is the fact that a weekend hack like myself can race in almost every regatta (except the Alter cup where you first must qualify) sail against and talk to the very top sailors in the sport, ask them how, why, what if, etc. and learn directly from them. It is like a once a month golfer going to play with Tiger Woods on a local course, in what other sport can you do that?

Thanks again to everyone who made it happen. It's a lot of work done by many volunteers who get nothing but a free beer out of it.

Thanks to you all and I hope to see you again at Tradewinds!

The class has at least three really great boats to choose from. This should be great news.

FWIW, there was a good bit of separation between the top five boats and the rest of the fleet. If you compare just Viper to Viper, it quickly becomes the "nut on the tiller". I have no doubt Robbie could have taken Seth's Taipan (it's older than Constantine's) and still have won the regatta by the same margin. Please try to remember that a lot of this regatta was sailed in wind over 15 knots. There just isn't much margin for error. That's where the skill really comes in. As Robbie was lapping me (yes, in more than one race)he seemed rested and in consumate control, while I was hanging on for dear life!

FYI Taylor was the helmsman on the last race. Robbie was the crew. So watch out for another tough competiter in the future.

GI

I stand corrected !

(although I wasn't to far off with Brett being in second place and on first ex equo till the last race day !)

Wouter

Kelly just started driving this year. So its not like she's lost running the front of the boat.



They would've done better too, had they not folded a mast.

I tell friends that there are only a handful of sporting events that you can compete with the best in the world.

Not Baseball, not Football (both kinds), not Tennis, not Golf ...

ONLY Distance Running, Sailing, WSOP ....

I am Amazed that a 2 year old from Victoria, Australia has such good inside knowledge of an event that took place on the other side of the world!!

Kids these days!!

Andrew did you get a chance to see the interviews I posted?

Yeah, nice job!!

Greg makes some good points about the future of the class..

Thanks, hopefully that should clear up a bit how the top gurus feel about the F16 weight.

IMO they all make really good points that the class should ponder on. After all these guys have a level of experience that we the club level racers lack.

Wow... Quiet in here now...

Macca,

What is the cost of the DSK78 rigging at the moment ?

Saving 1.8 kg on the standing rigging is alot.

Wouter

the stuff I used isn't available widely at the moment, but you will be available to order shortly I believe.

The costs are about double DSK75, which is still cheap weight savings.

Won't save 20kgs though