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Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: SurfCityRacing] #198208
12/04/09 01:52 PM
12/04/09 01:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
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mmadge Offline
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Thunder Bay ON CAN
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
I agree mmadge. I like how a little tinge of 'drill baby' hit this thread. Here's something for all to ponder from the F18 NAs:

Quote

Who the heck are these Dutch guys anyway? Between them they have several F18 Worlds Titles and their sailing during the F18 North Americans showed everyone exactly why. These guys are fast!

A few years back, Aaron Worrall and Worstie from Australlia came to out Hobie 16 NAs in Alameda, CA and proceeded to school our highly pedigreed 16 fleet. Sometimes these guys bettered our best by a leg. I remember being dumfounded as to how these two made the same boat go so much faster than anyone else.

That’s how I felt at the beginning of this week while watching Coen and Thijs utterly school the rest of a pretty good fleet with a bunch of bullets. Today, Friday, things started to unravel slightly for the pair with three 3rd palces and a 10th. Still pretty good, right? Their team mates Gunnar and Jeroen, who started off the week with a 7th, a couple of 4ths and 6th, came alive today with 3 bullets and a 2nd!

Watch out though, Greg Thomas and Jacques tweaked a few things and finished with a bullet and three 2nds today, putting them in a solid 3rd overall. Just saying.

Every Dutch guy I’ve ever met has been super laid back, which I’ve always attributed to the fact that their capitol is Amsterdam, and Gunnar, Jeroen, Coen and Thijs are no different. Clear all of that junk off the couch guys, I’m coming to visit for a while! Here’s what they had to say about the state of F18 affairs:

JL: What are some of the major differences between F18 sailing here in the States and what you guys are doing in Europe?

CK: You guys are going slower. (everyone laughs)

GL: This (Long Beach) is a nice place to sail really. I’ve been in two places in the U.S., Miami and here and both are awesome, great circumstances, great climate, and really fun sailing.

JL: How is the fleet different here in the U.S.?

CK: The fleets in Europe in the f18 class are a little bit larger. The first F18 North Americans I sailed was in Michigan in 2001. Compared to 2001 and now the level of the American F18 sailors has gone up a lot. It’s a very big difference. It’s good because the class gets bigger and bigger worldwide, which is a good thing. The reason we came all the way here to Long Beach was to achieve a good performance, but also to help the Formula 18 class grow.

TV: In Holland it’s growing and I think you guys are following us here.

JL: Where do you think F18 sailing is headed? Worldwide, but especially here in the States.

CK: It’s definitely growing. There are signals coming from anywhere and everywhere worldwide of Formula 18s picking up, and there are many new class associations starting every year. South America is adopting the F18. They used to have Prindle 19 and Prindle 18-2 fleet, but now it’s being converted to F18. It has everything to do with that it is possible for people to come to our worlds and compete on our boats, maybe not on the same level, but they can actually train at home.

JL:I hear that you guys learned that there are some cultural differences between how Americans take off their wet-gear and how the Dutch do it? Let’s hear about your little incident in the parking lot.

(Everyone laughs)

CK: Yes, Thijs was swinging his two-pounder in the parking lot and some girls couldn’t take it anymore. Now they’re ruined for life. In the Netherlands everyone gets naked on the beach and no one really cares, and I guess here you’re more modest.

(Everyone laughs)

JL: Right on. Well, it’s really nice to have you guys here to up the level of competition for this event. Hope to see you soon.


j


It is always easy to spot good sailors by how they trapeze,feet are close together toes pointed forward,nice straight legs and back,crew close together and both upper torso's torqued forward.There are not to many North American Hobie 16 teams that do that as well as the top Australians and Europeans.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: SurfCityRacing] #198209
12/04/09 01:54 PM
12/04/09 01:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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HA... I never win anything... all those years of raffles.... NADA!

Thanks

Send the shirt to me!
xxx PM'd
I need to post a pic of me proudly wearing it.

Send the 25 to CISA for their multihull High performance training program... or if Hobie Juniors have a Junior Olympic regatta out on the west coast to the OA for the regatta.

Thanks again!

Kudo's again to Rob and Greg who managed to work through the legal begle stuff about the full alu mast AND to get out there and support the F18 as a boat that both mixed and men's and women's teams could race with a full international championship that is balls tough to compete in.

The point that I have not seen followed up on is the opportunity to improve the proposal FROM TIGER SAILORS who have a stake in getting this right ...AND from the HOBIE YACHT CLUBS WHO NEED THIS RESOLVED to keep the racing going strong.

Sunshine and discussion are great ways to move the argument.

I noticed that the Bylaws statement was really very very similar to my very early post (number 3 or so).

How about the Tiger sailors stepping forward and working the proposal from that basis to improve it.

How about the OA's from the two divisions that have lots of Tiger racing sharing what the impact of a new policy would mean to their events.

The process will generate buy in to the final result. The non hobie world... (like me) will see the process and very likely ALSO buy in to the final result.

Good Lucks and thanks for the shirt!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Mark Schneider] #198210
12/04/09 01:59 PM
12/04/09 01:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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Santa Cruz, CA
I will gladly donate that $25 to a West Coast Based youth H16 program on your behalf if that's cool?

Shirt's yours though. Keep your dog warm, wash your car, doormat whatever.

j

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: SurfCityRacing] #198235
12/04/09 05:23 PM
12/04/09 05:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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Lots of stuff here, I'm not going to touch on things that have been answered already.

As for Madcatter being a points regatta or not, it does have an impact. This is an Area Championship, which is a step up a notch for normal points regattas, funds are provided by the HCA to take it up a bit, and points count 1.5 times normal. Under the current rules, these are required to be Hobie-only. Division 16 has strong rivalries for points totals. Not saying people would stop going if the points status went away, but it would certainly upset a lot of folks.

To my knowledge, there was no attempt to hide anything from the HCA membership. Posting here is not the same as giving information to our members, as many of you complaining the loudest here are not even members. The bylaws report was distributed to Division chairs, the real voting power in the HCA. From there, they are free (and expected) to share this info with their members, to decide how to proceed.

As others have noted, this is a subject ripe for emotional discussion, and Chris is really trying to conduct this in a rational manner.

Bob said, "There is however a benefit to be had by the two organizations working together so that regatta attendance can be maintained at a level that allows the events to remain viable. In fact this is exactly how every Regional Hobie Class outside of North America operates. No part of the HCA or IHCA bylaws prohibits this."

I'd like to hear more about this, perhaps this is the way to go with the proposal.

FOR THE RECORD: First, I'm just the membership dude, and have no vote. I don't have a Tiger. I'm from Division 12, which lost lots of Hobie sailors over the years (lots of reasons for this) to the point of now having only one points regatta, in ME. I have quite a few friends that now sail F18s, and only get to see them once or twice a year now.

I think the real long-term solution is to work harder to get more new sailors on Hobies. If having F18s at HCA events will help keep regattas from going away, I'm in favor of finding something that will work within the rules we're governed by, being very careful about what we change. I feel somewhat strongly that we should only open this invitiation to classes in which HCC manufactures a boat (in other words, no monohulls, etc.). BUT, we shouldn't kid ourselves that inviting the F18 class will solve all the problems, we really need new blood.

All of that is me speaking as a strong advocate of HCA. As a Race Officer, I don't care what shows up, if the OA invited you, I'll work like a dog to give you the best racing possible.

Mike

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: brucat] #198245
12/04/09 07:57 PM
12/04/09 07:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

BUT, we shouldn't kid ourselves that inviting the F18 class will solve all the problems, we really need new blood.



No, Hobie should stop trying to make SMOD classes from succesful formula classes.

The scene is diluted no because "new blood" doesn't find their way to the Tiger design, but because Hobie split the Tiger class off from its proper sailing class (the F18's) and creates so many sub classes.

There are over 20 differnt Hobie classes. What other thing then dilution do you think would have happened ?


The scene didn't leave Hobie, Hobie left the scene.

Sorry

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Wouter] #198246
12/04/09 08:08 PM
12/04/09 08:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Quote
There are over 20 differnt Hobie classes.

Maybe in Europe, but not in the U.S.

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Mary] #198251
12/04/09 10:02 PM
12/04/09 10:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Mary
Originally Posted by Wouter
There are over 20 different Hobie classes.

Maybe in Europe, but not in the U.S.


There's like 1-3/4 in the US. Whether this is Hobie's fault or not I can not say, but in a sport that is damn near dead this is the reality. We're a minority, within a minority, within a minority, (sailing, then those who actually race). I can't identify what it was that brought 100+ boats to average weekend regatta's, but I know sure as sh!t that those people don't exist any longer. Hell, I'm not sure I'd even participate if regatta's were that big. I'm seriously uncomfortable around that many people, and I'm prone to going hostile. Leave me in a big group for too long, I turn violent. Anybody who knows me will attest to this. Anyway, I don't think Hobie US neccessarily agrees with HCE and many fronts. HCE produces alot of bastard boats, I'm sure there is models that have to have the dust knocked off the molds just so they can build one.

The point is we need to bring in the people by whatever means neccessary, and not turning them away. I'm not sure this applies to inviting or working our way into typical events, but maybe thats a good solution for bringing people back in as well. Hosting a regatta with 10-15 boats is pathetic looking. I didn't realize this until recently. People are generally dumb, and are sheep, they'll do whatever everbody else is doing. Seeing something popular, makes it more so, and vice-versa(sp). This isn't neccessarily along the lines of the F18 debate, but the sport has been on the decline for a long time. Did the Hobie only rule at Hobie regatta's have an effect? And if so, did that change have a negative impact on the sport as a whole? Did that drive down the sales numbers for the very factory that supports those classes?

I really do love this sport, it has been my genisis in life. I've made some good friends. I've started to see the edges of being able to do it well, and that is really gratifying. I hope I don't see the end of it coming as well, because I'm not going to bother when its me and 3 other dopes sitting on an imaginary line waiting for a whistle.


I'm not actually allowed to post in this thread, and I'm sorry for doing so. The person I'm talking to knows who they are.

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Karl_Brogger] #198252
12/04/09 11:08 PM
12/04/09 11:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Damn, Karl. You need to stop taking naps in the afternoon. You're cranky.

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Mary] #198255
12/05/09 06:01 AM
12/05/09 06:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Maybe in Europe, but not in the U.S.


A few years back at the US peak we had :

H14
H16
H17
TheMightyHobie18
H18SX
H20
H21
H. trifoiler
Tiger
Fox (although this died rather quickly)
FX-one
Wave
Getaway
Bravo


14 different designs/classes that I could write down in the span of 30 seconds.

Most of them have been terminated now that is true, but that was also sort of necessary.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Wouter] #198259
12/05/09 10:11 AM
12/05/09 10:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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the IHCA classes include

Dragoon (ever raced in US?)
Wave (sparse HCANA racing)
14/14T (count as two, if you will)
16
17
FX-ONE (sparse)
18/18M/18SX/18Formula (18M/18SX sparse, F never)
Tiger
20
21
FOX (very sparse, there were what? five US boats?)

OK, so that's a total of 15 classes, (Dragoon & 18F are definite throw outs) but I'd count the number as six, those actually established as a class. And when exactly is this "peak"? 14 went out of production in what '94?...15 years ago.

All this being history, hopefully we're learning and moving forward? Even though I hope the order for ten sets of 18 hulls becomes a reality, truth is, the Hobie 16 is the US mainstay left standing.

Another couple of boats are needed to compliment the H16. Tiger/Wildcat/F18 and Wave are the only current (and strong) directions for the future. I'm excited to see focus in this direction (however painful) and actual steps being taken. I'll echo what everyone here doesn't want, when all us old farts here get too old to "get it up", that cat racing in the US doesn't just...fade away.

I'll also echo rhodysail, brucat and others sentiments that this F18 proposal will be massaged and re-submitted (and again if necessary) so there is a direction for the future. Can't leave just Karl and three other guys out there, that would be wrong. I'll trust cool heads will prevail.




Last edited by _flatlander_; 12/05/09 10:12 AM. Reason: grammatical

John H16, H14
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Wouter] #198260
12/05/09 10:13 AM
12/05/09 10:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Wouter

Quote

Maybe in Europe, but not in the U.S.


A few years back at the US peak we had :

H14
H16
H17
TheMightyHobie18
H18SX
H20
H21
H. trifoiler
Tiger
Fox (although this died rather quickly)
FX-one
Wave
Getaway
Bravo


14 different designs/classes that I could write down in the span of 30 seconds.

Most of them have been terminated now that is true, but that was also sort of necessary.

Wouter


Many of those came and went before others were introduced.
In North America, there are only these classes presently racing (followed by % of attendance at HCA Events):

Hobie 14 - 4%
Hobie Wave - 1% (does not include IWCA events)
Hobie 16 - 52%
Hobie 17 - 12%
Hobie 18 - 12%
Hobie 20 - 13%
Hobie Tiger OD - 6%

There were approximately 1,750 attendees at HCA sanctioned events in 2009.

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Wouter] #198261
12/05/09 10:15 AM
12/05/09 10:15 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



Yikes, I hate it when there are statistics. Facts are sometimes hard to take.

Last edited by xanderwess; 12/05/09 10:17 AM.
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: mbounds] #198262
12/05/09 10:26 AM
12/05/09 10:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Quote
There were approximately 1,750 attendees at HCA sanctioned events in 2009.

How many events? (Just wondering what the average attendance was.)

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: ] #198264
12/05/09 10:39 AM
12/05/09 10:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Originally Posted by xanderwess
Yikes, I hate it when there are statistics. Facts are sometimes hard to take.
+1 thanks Matt

So there's an effort in the upper plains states to move from the 14 to the 17? Let's make the 14 0% and the 17 16%? Move to a boat that is no longer in production? Only a band-aid.

Other "campfire" talk...buy up all the 20's and get them to the areas (plains/midwest) where they'll be raced? Another move to a boat that's no longer in production.

Unlike some classes in other parts of the world, and being SMOD, the class asociation is not going to get the molds for these boats. Classes need new boats to survive.

and "campfire" talk...these (future) discussions need to be held on the decks of yatch clubs, there's safety in numbers. The "five boats is a class" is a positive move.

sorry for regurgitating the obvious, that QT columbian supreme-o blend has me pumped


John H16, H14
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: ] #198268
12/05/09 11:07 AM
12/05/09 11:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Yikes, I hate it when there are statistics. Facts are sometimes hard to take.




>>>Hobie Tiger OD - 6%


Yes, they are hard to take aren't they ?

Scrap that Tiger class (and Wildcat class) and just go F18.

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: Mary] #198269
12/05/09 11:08 AM
12/05/09 11:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Originally Posted by Mary
Quote
There were approximately 1,750 attendees at HCA sanctioned events in 2009.

How many events? (Just wondering what the average attendance was.)
I counted (60) events, including 14 NAC's, 16 NAC's and the HavaMega (Wave, 17, 18, 20, Tiger NAC's)


John H16, H14
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: _flatlander_] #198278
12/05/09 12:09 PM
12/05/09 12:09 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Central California
Originally Posted by _flatlander_
Originally Posted by Mary
Quote
There were approximately 1,750 attendees at HCA sanctioned events in 2009.

How many events? (Just wondering what the average attendance was.)
I counted (60) events, including 14 NAC's, 16 NAC's and the HavaMega (Wave, 17, 18, 20, Tiger NAC's)


So average of less than 30 people (attendees) per event? Or are these event w/in events?

Man, our sport is miniscule and getting smaller by the day. Meanwhile, I see fields full of kids playing soccer, baseball, football, etc. and the video game stores full of kids and adults tinkering with games.

Really, it is amazing any catamaran dealers like Jeremy can survive. Same could be said for low volume manufacturers--which is all beach cat makers. (At least Hobie has the rotomolded kayaks to sell.)


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: ejpoulsen] #198283
12/05/09 12:42 PM
12/05/09 12:42 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



John, at the 15 or so campfires I have sat around with you, you are ALWAYS asleep. Maybe you were dreaming all that.
AND, you were the first of the group to get a 17.......so you're the trendsetter.

Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: SurfCityRacing] #198285
12/05/09 01:00 PM
12/05/09 01:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Wasn't the first Tiger raced in the Worrell 1000 ??


Have Fun
Re: hyperbole and inaccuracies [Re: catman] #198289
12/05/09 01:35 PM
12/05/09 01:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2
D
Diamond Shoals Offline
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D

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Posts: 2
Gerard Loos from the Netherlands raced the first Hobie Tiger in this country. Team Nokia in the 1998 Worrell 1000. They did quite well until a massive storm on the Outer Banks. They lost the boat in the huge shore break (10-14 foot) at Kill Devil Hills.

If I remember correctly (I was ground crew that year) there were many restrictions on them bringing the Tiger to the USA. Since they did not have a Comtip, the boat could not be re-sold in the US, and they had to deliver the boat to a Hobie dealer in upstate NY after the race.

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