sleeping is a the sign of a "seasoned" (or out-of-shape) sailor On second thought, I have no earthly idea how Bommer and Taha can stay up so late drinking rum and still sail so well, let alone get just get up.
Maybe one of these days I'll actually sail that boat. BTW, the 14 is READY for Ocean Springs

NAF18 sticker Nov. 2, 2001

One of the early NAF18 Newsletter



Feb. 2002

An average in this case is a misleading statistic. Not all classes have the same number of events. There are two or three events that are way above average (for example - Madcatter for 16s, NACs for all classes) that skew the average.

There remain several locations where Tigers are raced OD in significant numbers - upstate NY and the Pacific NW are the biggest two. In those areas, they constitute a much larger percentage of attendees, but when you spread it out over the whole of North America, then they are only 6%.

1,750 unique participants or total added up at all the events (including repeats)? I'm not trying to degrade...I'm a statistic freak.

Total added up at all the events (including repeats).

Statistics usually are.

There are not known under the alternative name "legalized lying" for nothing.

Look at the stock market report for examples.

There are so many tricks one can employ to highlight the situation from a prefer perspective that it isn't even fun anymore.

Wouter

I remember watching that as it happened There was a great webcam that year - it updated every few seconds.

But this tiger /F18 issue involves 21 Tiger sailors in North America in two regions involving at most 6 Hobie Yacht Clubs who would change their policy.

Percentages obscure reality as well.

Mark,

I'm not sure where your numbers are derived from but we've got 21 Tigers known in the Pacific Northwest alone. 5 more in the Northern California Region. And that's just the Tigers!

We have tracked growth for 3 seasons now as we grew from 3 boats to the current 21.

I don't maintain the numbers on the Nacra's in the region. But there have been 10 showing for weekend sessions up in Vancouver, BC, so I'm told. Many more of both in the Southern California.

The Tiger/F18 issues involves the entire Division for us. Not just the Tiger/F18's.

Which is why we are taking great care to make sure we have all available opinions in our area regardless of which way they lean on the proposal. We're also very careful to ensure all of the available facts are presented.

Every member we have contact with has received copies of The Proposal, Hobie Class rules, NAF18 rules, HCA Bylaws, Bylaws Committee recommendations, and statistics in a Pie Chart showing number of data points and percentages for/against.

The only thing being kept private are the names. For obvious reasons.

A persons opinion is not disputed up here. However, the outcome of the proposal has often been disputed with great passion up here, and on that fact we can all agree.

Both sides can, and have looked at the same data and come to different conclusions. Only time will tell.

Respectfully,
Don Atchley
Hobie Division 4 Chairman
NAF18 Treasurer

Hey! I just look at the NAHCA Rankings which list 21 paid members of the Tiger class.... Racing in two regions of country. (See, your class website under rankings.)

The other region, Syracuse.. Rochester etc made the original proposal so you would think they would be in favor of their own proposal. The issue seems small, regional, and separated at opposite ends of the continent.
If nothing else... the vote should drive 2010 membership up!

"The Tiger/F18 issues involves the entire Division for us. Not just the Tiger/F18's."

Now this is the puzzle!... I would love to hear why a hobie 16 or other racer has an interest in the Tiger F18 class policy.



The proposal is really a save the local yacht club request.

The entire cat racing community has an interest in Hobie Yacht Clubs going strong and putting on good events. This is why the proposal is public and draws attention. If your Yacht Club does not need saving... Don't invite the F18 class!... Let those clubs that see themselves in some trouble attempt to recruit more boats.

In politics... it is usually called local control!

EDIT: BTW, this is just my response to Mark's point, I'm not saying that I'm against the proposal...

The F18 is NOT the ultimate answer to saving the events or class. Division 12 proved that several years ago. Bringing in high-end boats has the unintended consquence of taking up-and-coming, and/or advanced sailors off of existing cats.

That is fine, unless new blood is not coming in; in which case, this just delays the inevitable.

Of course, it could also accelerate it, if the classes which give up sailors to the new boats shrink to the point that the remaining sailors don't show up anymore. Ask anyone sailing a TheMightyHobie18, H20 or H21 that went from 5-8 boats at regattas to 3 or less.

EDIT: I know, the Tiger class in and of itself can have the same effect. My point is, the real answer is NEW SAILORS, not newer, faster boats. To get that, you typically need to start with simpler boats (H16, etc.).

We need more Wave and H16 sailors.

Mike

Division 16 is also very open with information on their website. Good to see.

OK Mike
No one argues that we don't need more new sailors... That is why it's crucial ... essential... critical to keep Hobie Yacht Clubs alive and viable. That is the reason for the F18 proposal... It says so!

Juniors and New racers can enter cat racing through Hobie 16 racing without killing themselves.

but linking new sailors, Tiger sailing and existing Hobie Classes...in some fuzzy way... Is this really your argument or your contribution to the discussion?

Do you really want to argue or even suggest that Hobie 16 sailors nationwide should want to shoot down a proposal that Tiger sailors in at least one of only two regions a) WANT and b} their HOBIE yacht club's want since it will keep them financially solid ...Because it will undermine the Hobie 16 fleet in their regions of the country??? W TF !

Hell with this reasoning... Why stop there... Why not just neglect the Hobie 20 class and force those guys backwards to Hobie 18's... or all the way back to Hobie 16's. ...

If you believe that class preservation is achieved by not supporting competing classes... then you would be better off by denying starts to Tigers period... Start with those areas that have none in 2010 ...

Is that the argument you or anyone wants to make?

Really, Mark? "I'll take reading and comprehension for 100, Alex."

Did anyone else read any of this into my post???

Mike

Yeah, I can see where Mark is in the ball park with his response to your post. Even though you say you're not against the proposal the content of your post clearly shows that you don't support it either (IMO).

Nobody is claiming the F18 proposal will save Hobie regattas. It just looks like a way to boost the F18 numbers at some Hobie only regattas making it more enjoyable for the F18 sailors and more financially viable for the hosts.

Also the argument that having X brand F18's at a Hobie regatta will cause the numbers in other Hobie classes to diminish is a red herring.

There is no red herring here, we have seen it happen. Division 12 was one of the first to adopt non-Hobie boats; our regattas no longer exist. This is not the fault of the non-Hobie sailors, but everyone, including the Hobie sailors that chose to stop racing. And, those who kept racing, unfortunately weren't effective in bringing in new sailors. Fleet 448 was doing the best job, but those numbers have been slowly diminishing as well.

That does NOT mean I am against this F18 proposal, BUT, I am not 100% in favor of it, either. We need to be sure that we are looking at the whole, big picture to keep this sport alive in 5-10 years. That means LEARNING FROM OUR MISTAKES.

Read my prior post again. The mistake that I am referring to is expecting that bringing in new boats will solve the whole problem. The answer isn't necessarily to exclude the new classes (although that has worked in some areas), but to really focus on new blood.

Even before the Hobie-only rule, our Division 12 regattas were dwindling to a point of being barely sustainable.

This is really, really hard to discuss over the web without someone taking something totally out of context, but it's not much easier in person. I just want everyone to be sure that they don't expect the F18 (or any other "quick" answer) to solve this problem long-term. It may help in the short term, which is also very important, but efforts need to be made immediately to figure out how to get new sailors onto our boats, not our existing sailors onto new boats.

Mike

Hasn't this conversation, or a variation thereof, been going on for at least 20 years?

Who said F18 IS the ultimate answer?

Personaly I think it's just another tool in the shed.

I agree Bob, but we need to be aware of the unintended consequences so we can proactively work to prevent them. As I said above, if bringing in the F18s helps keeps events alive long enough to allow us to turn the tide on overall Hobie numbers, I'm all for it; but I'm not convinced this will be the case. Again, that doesn't have to mean voting down this proposal; rather, HCA needs to focus our work on bringing in new Hobie sailors and/or bringing back old ones.

If we can pull that off, Mary, it will be the key difference from the past 20 years. Otherwise, the F18 will be just another band-aid as the patient (HCA) slowly dies. EDIT: That is, of course, if you believe the hype that this is the only way to keep regattas afloat in a few places in the country, as several people have mentioned.

Mike

In ten years we will be a Hobie 16 class. The Hobie 16 class is not big enough to play by itself (and it will not grow fast enough). We need friends. Any questions?