Mike and Bob,
Division 12 has nothing to offer to any class. The local F-18 class does not even need NENSA. The F-18 class attends most of the top shelf regattas as a standalone class. No paper YC can compete with the American YC, Sail Newport, Hyannis YC and The Buzzard Bay Regatta. The only way a class will survive in the Northeast is to work to get into these Regattas.
Barry

I thought the only successful sustainability model has been attract non-racing sailors by promoting fun (non-racing events) and solicit heavy participation by the racing segments in the form of offering assistance (crew, tuning, boat handling, etc). Then, once "prospective racing" sailors get comfortable, lure them on to the fast boat / racing group. Does this model still work?

What are racing associations doing toward this end?

As far as adding new types/classes... aren't all these "tools" doing the same thing? It's one thing to have a tool box with a saw, hammer, drill, screwdriver, etc. but an entirely different issue if the tool box just has a hundred different types of screwdriver.

I will not argue that Hobie needs to open herself up to SMOD classes of others to allow these to grow at the expense of her own classes/products.

Point in fact, neither is the Nacra 20 OD going to support the Hobie Fox class or the F17 class going to support the FX-one or iCat. Not even when both classes are basically build around identical specifications.

Such a thing would indeed by non-sensical from a Hobie perspective and the larger catamaran scene will also not be helped much by such action.



It will already be a major step when Hobie supports the F18 class as a F18 class and not some OD class of their own (Tiger SMOD; Wildcat SMOD). Similar reasoning with respect to the Wave. Form one single class that includes all and supports all. After all, Rick and his friends made this Wave class when Hobie was not interested in growing it in that direction. One can not just shut them out now when they have worked hard to create this demand for the boat. Same with the Tiger, the F18 sailors founded and grew that class to the premier catamaran class that it is now and there was no reason for the Tiger to go its own way.

I also believe Hobie can live by a simple criterium.

It will be enough when Hobie will support only those classes that in return also support HOBIE products. This implies, true formula classes like a A's, F18 and F16's but not the F17's. There is no reason for Hobie to support the Nacra 20 One-Design as Nacra doesn't support the Hobie Fox. There can be however reasons for hobie to support the F16 class as that class will also fully support any compliant product build by Hobie; either built now (Hobie MAX) or in the future (Shortened Hobie iCat).

Note in this respect that if Hobie can built and market the iCat then Hobie can also build an F16, there is practically no meaningful difference between either product. They only have to produce 250 mm shorter hulls (less then a foot) and the design will be F16 compliant.


Therefore that can be the deal. Hobie supports classes that are supportive of Hobies in return. Promotion for such classes helps everybody (the whole catamaran scene) but also Hobie itself. It is also undeniable that other classes like the F16 class (as the F18 and A-cats) will be supportive of a Hobie Wave entry class. Such a class is missing at the moment and making it a succes will help us all.

We have to get past the narrow thinking of unrelated SMOD's and look for the bigger pictures were indeed competiting products can be mutually supportive.

I see a nexus forming around the Waves (F12), A-cats, F18's, F16's and some intermediate youth boat like the SL16/Nacra500/Hobie16/Dart18. Those last 4 designs should be made to merge into one relatively tightly controlled modern looking formula or OD class around the same specifications that is open to all builder either under license building or the formula concept. It will help the Wave alot when something along the lines of license building can also be set up there.

Wouter

The Waves are certainly welcome at GYC. Our next big regatta is April. Plenty of time to plan.

Do you have a date?

I obviously hope that NAHCA lets those handful of Hobie Yacht Clubs do what they want and offer starts to F18's and Waves... and those clubs that want to only do Hobie Tiger starts keep on with their program. I do HOPE that enough of those F18 and Wave sailors want to come and go racing with Hobie Yacht Clubs, more importantly.... the interest in supporting Hobie Yacht Clubs persists for years to come..

BUT, I won't let Bob's faulty conclusions shape the ongoing debate. Especially when Open Class Racing in 2010 is a RED HERRING.



Otherwise called open class.. This One -off design class provided racing for Hobie 21's, Hobie 20's. Hobie 17 sports and any other Hobie boat found in the USPN table who could no longer .. if ever... make class... These boats are infamous one-off's that no one has ever seen.

By 2010... the inconvenient problem is essentially over! These old boats are now much older and along with other dead boats from Prindle, Nacra, Mystere, are no longer being campaigned in many regions of North America ... At most they stagger out to the starting line for a special race once or twice a year. Open Class racing is a Red Herring.

Open class racing, on the Chesapeake has changed from 9 or 10 events a year... to three. We have two days of Distance Racing. (Race to Oxford) and two Open class starts at summer weekend dinghy regattas. The idea is to get 3 boats each from the surviving One Design classes and get at least 10 boats on the start line... These three Open events give the "one off" or in my words... dead boat society members a few opportunities to go racing on the weekends... The idea is that a new cat sailor is likely to have bought one of these old race boats... when they get the bug to .."see what it would be like to go racing... They will have a couple of weekend races to catch the bug.

Surviving OD classes are Hobie 16, Hobie 17, Hobie 18, A class, F16 class, Nacra 20.... The last two are essentially club One design classes. Oh, and the irony of it all... The major Open Class Race is the AREA C Qualifier for the HOBIE ALTER US SAILING CHAMPIONSHIP!

Hobie had a choice... Properly MANAGE the downsizing (Sounds like what you are trying to do now)... or pretend that good management was to stand on the flying H and yell "STOP... NO MORE..the one off boats are undermining our class and racing and must be tossed". Hobie's management guru's thought that by kicking out non Hobies that their racing and clubs would stop sliding downwards and stabilize on this magical plateau of One design racing. They had the wrong diagnosis and the slow slide to becoming a Hobie 16 only class continues unabated.



REALLY... What new class would that be?

The growing classes are F18's, A class, and F16's. Most of these sailors thought they were HELPING HOBIE FLEETS BY GOING TO THEIR RACES. Hobie mistakenly thought they had a monopoly on catamaran racing ...That sailors, faced with running their own small regattas, would get back on board with Hobie One Design Racing. So..the sailors in the three new classes simply partnered with Yacht clubs who welcomed them as new members and are willing to run more races then we have sailors.

Hobie Paper Yacht Clubs will be competing with Yacht Clubs with facilities for sailor participation.

Bob is asking the wrong question. It's not what other classes should Hobie classes partner with... rather, it's what Yacht Clubs should Hobie Yacht Clubs partner with in their region to have catamaran racing and their own organization survive.

April 10 & 11.

Just a question, in the long history of Hobie sailing, has there ever been another boat that wanted to race against the Hobies?
What about when the P16 came out, or when the N5.2 came around. Who were they racing?
When I bought my 5.2 in 1990 and attended my first race, I never remember being told I couldnt compete, and Im sure I was attending a HCA regatta, I remember all the Hobie swag being given away.
Ive been told at my home club there was a Hobie regatta that had 200 boats, early 1980's, Pam Walker Memorial I believe. Surely there wouldnt have been any need for HCA to allow misfit boats, but where did they all race?

Mark
Wow where to start.
First off you are right that some of the one-offs were Hobie Cats. Some were not. The 18HT got quite a bit of help from the HCA. When the HCA pulled the plug it was clear that the F18 or the 18HT would survive, but not both.
I think that you don't understand what I mean by "the problem". The problem was that Hobie Cat sailors had (in many areas) lost control of the Hobie Class Association (ie: we had a Nacra 20 sailors as the HCA Chairman). Obviously if you are the organization that runs events for everyone then everyone wants to have a say in the organization. That makes perfect sense but that was not what the Hobie Class was meant to be. The result was that a hard line had to be drawn in order for Hobie sailors (one-off Hobie's included, as well as the Wildcat I might add) to get their class back.
The result was predictable and was predicted. Most people (myself included) did not expect the "magical plateau" that you mention.
So, we have our class back and the question is how do we go forward. In my view the hard line is not so necessary anymore. We took the hit we needed to take and now we can moderate.
How do we do that? Well we have a bunch of Tiger sailors who want to race F18. Can we do that by the bylaws? I think so because we are supporting the Hobie Cat sailors (see bylaws).
What's the potential down side? In my opinion the potential downside is that the HCA would turn into the F18 class just like it turned into the North American Catamaran Association.
Do I think this will happen? No I don't. The reason is that the F18 class has reached a point where it is an established class and will stand on it's own. You see when you have two established classes a partnership is possible without one organization being absorbed into the other, that's key.

Now to answer your point about what yacht clubs the HCA should partner with, that is already starting. The first step in moderating the One-Design policy was to start counting open yacht club events as some points regattas. This has been in effect for only a year but preliminary reports are all positive.

Barry is right, in Division 12, the F18s don't "need" the HCA or its regattas.

In and of itself, allowing other cats into Hobie regattas is not the problem. The problem comes when there is no new blood. The F18 proposal is OK, since it uses Hobie-made boats, and will bring in some new sailors already sailing F18s.

I don't have time for a lot of discussion about that right now, but to answer any lingering questions about what my point is in this thread; when we see a substantial plan that can be implemented across the country to get new people sailing Hobie Cats, that will be a great day in the history of the HCA. Yes, I have some ideas, but we really need to get a gathering of the minds across the region.

Mike

I'm sorry... can I see your active catamaran sailor membership card?

And while we are at it... Jay we need to see your paperwork as well.

I am not a member of any group. If EMSA asked for dues I would gladly pay them as they are the only group in my area that provides racing and supports cat racing.
I have been in this sport since the late '70s. I attended regattas were 100's of boats showed up. I remember A,B and C fleets. And interestingly enough I have always owned Hobie product.

In my experience NACRA, Mystere or any brand other than Hobie has ever been active at the local regatta level. If I wanted to race NACRA only or NACRA SMOD where would I go?

Hobie has every right to protect their turf! If not for Hobie would there even be cat racing in the US?

I know NACRA has a race week every year, other than that are there NACRA regattas? I also see the formula classes holding regattas but no manufacturer involvement other than Hobie.

I have said this before, growing cat sailing requires manufacturer involvement. At this time Hobie would rather focus on selling yaks than cats. I participate in several "extreme" sports and have contact with 100s of others in those games. Unless they grew up at the coast or near water they know nothing about cat sailing and see it as something old people or rich people do. They don't see it for what it can be, EXTREME! This is why there is a shortage of new blood.

I am not a fan of light air sailing and have no fun if its not blowing. As a result I wait until right before a race to decide if I am going or not. I have introduced sailing to all my nephews but they have little to no interest in racing due to the common light air on lakes but they love to go hauling butt across the ocean in 15+ kts. I am currently working on a TheMightyHobie18 to give to one of them with the intent of him racing it this upcoming year. I am also teaching my 10yr old nephew to enjoy cat sailing and hope to be crewing for him one day!

Bob

A suitable class to partner with???!... in 2010?

Once again, You and NAHCA are using the wrong model/paradigm to manage the Classes and Hobie Yacht Clubs you micromanage.

Facts on the ground are the only things that matter looking forward (ignoring the past specifically our differences in describing or analyzing it) Consider:

Yacht Clubs own the water access and cat sailors will need to adapt to this world... or be left high, dry and dead! IMO, Your NEW Yacht Club policy is about 10 years LATE and COMPLETELY INADEQUATE for the pressing problem.

In Dan Delave's Original Post.... He was mildly disappointed with what he thought was a final decision on F18's. But in his part of the world..... Tiger /NAHCA stuff is irrelevant. He has too many yacht clubs asking to host F18 regattas then he has sailors. Just like the Chesapeake, New England, and the South. Hobie NAHCA Control of Hobie racing at the Hobie Yacht Club level was and has been irrelevant... ! IMO, It's silly to talk about what is a suitable class to partner with in this 21st century world. ... as Rick White of the IWCA waves said... "Hey we are fat dumb and happy and don't need or care about NAHCA organized racing opportunities". The F18 Class, per John Williams is ambivalent about a change in policy. F16 Class.... They are looking at YC's to host them. A Class?... no chance in hell....

Nevertheless, I am very glad that you (collectively) feel you are back in control and can loosen up on micromanaging Hobie Yacht clubs and what classes they host. (For the record, I think your F18 Bylaw problem is a paperwork problem which is solvable pretty quickly). Getting the F18's to Syracuse, Rochester etc is a good step ( I hope they go). But, PLEASE get the dink back on course and address the most worrisome part of Dan's original post!



Let me guess.... He is talking about the Hobie 16 sailors who are ACTUALLY freeloading on the Yacht Club system in So Cal...

I really want to make this point again! When Hobie Paper Yacht Clubs ARE competing with Yacht Clubs for sailor participation. HOBIE WILL LOSE! (Real bathrooms TRUMP porta potties for women 99.9% of the time).

"Classes to partner with" is a silly paradigm when it comes face to face with the real world issue of a porta potty and my wife!

It's not what other classes should the "Hobie association" partner with... rather, it's what Yacht Clubs should Hobie Yacht Clubs partner with in each region to have catamaran racing and their own organization survive.

Minimally, the NAHCA should REFOCUS and RETHINK their relationship with the existing Yacht clubs in this country. Do you want to compete for participation with them? Do you think that Paper Yacht Clubs that take over public beaches one weekend a year is a program that will attract new catamaran sailors and new catamaran racers in the 21st century? Which is easy to find for a newbie... a Hobie Paper Yacht Club racing for one weekend at Gunpowder St Park in early May or a Yacht Club in Annapolis...called the Annapolis Yacht Club (for example)?

At the very least NAHCA should make it clear that Hobie Fleets and Hobie Class members should join their local Yacht clubs when they use the Yacht Club system to support their racing (eg So Cal). Leadership by NAHCA should guide new partnerships in the future in areas where it can be developed or strengthened ... NAHCA must have a robust philosophy about how to integrate their paper yacht clubs with the existing Yacht Club world... It's not just adult racing... but also junior sailing would be enhanced dramatically as well.

Finding a way to keep what is an essential piece of catamaran racing experience in America... the Hobie Beach Regatta as well as the existing and future partnerships with Yacht clubs is the only future that I can see. Either you put in place policies and directives that makes this happen or you will find your selves on the outside of the Yacht Club system and the Hobie 16 only class will fade to irrelevance.

Tying in with YCs certainly has a lot of benefits. Did you mention showers?

The frustrating thing is, at least around here, we can't get cat sailors willing to commit and pre-register for events. It's embarrassing to keep asking for a spot at an event, only to have only one or two boats make the attempt to pre-register by the deadline.

We also don't want to live in the real world in terms of what it should cost to enter an event. We're too demanding of $40 entry fees per two-person boat, for a two-day event. Yeah, right...

I understand that cat sailors tend to be "rebels" or whatever, but this is one area where it really hurts us. The F18s seem to have realized that they need to accept this, kudos to them.

Mike

I teach you everything I know, raise into a good little sailor, trick into you a racing with me in the Tybee, then you throw me in a nursing home when Im no longer needed. It sux being old.
Im presently in negotiations for another cat, so be prepared to get spanked again by the old guy!

Mark

First of all I don’t manage the class. I am the FORMER chairman. Basically I’m just loud and opinionated, something we both have in common.

Yes our new yacht club policy is late. It may even be inadequate. But it was passed by the HCA Board and only by a hair so I’d say we pushed it just far enough.

Many leaders in the HCA have been pushing the YC thing for a long time (and Barry is right about the North East by the way) but as Mike point out it’s a tough sell in many areas. Some areas are embracing the YC scene and it’s working out great. Talking to Rob (it’s Rob’s proposal we’re talking about) a few nights ago he pointed out that they don’t have much of a YC scene in his area to tap into. This makes his proposal all the more important to Div 16.

BTW: Div 11 (your area) has plenty of YC regattas but they are One-Design events.

So basically I think a balance of things would be good for the class right now.

OK OK OK...now look. You checked yourself into that nursing home. I had nothing to do with that...I did put a sweet looking bling bling fix on your old rudder arm though. ;-)

Tell me it's not a SC20TR.....

Hi Bob

Yes.. we are both opinionated. I think of you as one of the major opinion leaders of the Hobie Class!. Hopefully our sunshine on the debate is useful in getting all sailors on board.

Balance... is a great way to describe what's needed right now. Hopefully, NAHCA will Identify a clear vision for the next ten years and slowly get the rank and file on board working towards the objective.

Sorry to have kept on the sidelines since I started this thread. I did not like the initial direction and tried to make it go away. It did not but has really gotten foothold. I like the discussion and concern of all participating. Thank you all for that!



As of right now, from my perspective, I see three strong classes of catamarans in the US. The A-Cat, Hobie 16, and Formula 18. From these you should be able to pick a pony you would like to compete on. A-Cat for those that like to solo. H16 for the Husband/Wife, Boyfriend/Girlfriend, anyone who would like to sail with their light child. Formula 18 for the mostly Guy/Guy teams (adrenaline junkies). I know there are parts of the country that will embrace other boats, Wave, F16, other Hobies, Nacra I20 for example. Regarding overall racing, I am sorry I could not include any of those in this list. It may not be in the NAHCAs best interest to embrace my list, but it may be in the Yacht Clubs interest to consider it. The boats I mentioned can, in most areas, make a fleet at a regatta. Usually only requires 5 boats. This will increase participation at an event which has some fixed costs associated with it: Mark and committee boats, fuel, marks, lunch for volunteers. It is expensive to run a regatta so the more that show up the better.

The only way a Yacht Club could do it is to have many different classes participate. Do you think that every event has 20 or more of one kind of boat on the line? No. They have invited many types of boats. Each guarantees them at least 5 boats on the line for a start. There are several starts and after the first they usually roll so the sailors on the fast boats are not waiting all day for everyone to finish. I have run regattas. A critical mass is about 25. That is just about the break even for a low key regatta. You will need to have 5 classes if you are only getting 5 boats in each class. Count the number of boats you can get at an all Catamaran regatta in each class in your area and you may see a problem. Include the sailors who have never even thought of a catamaran as an option and you can see it would be easier to get a good number for a regatta.

Catamarans are exciting to watch! Especially, if you are watching them speed around while hanging off the rail of some other type of boat. Since racing cannot be watched very well from the shore how do we promote sailing? By catching other sailors interest enough to get off of those other boats and onto a cat. I know that this does not seem like a fair way to do it but there are sailors and there are non-sailors. We will only get interested parties (sailors) to pay attention to what we have. Imagine what they think when you are racing by them going to the same mark? There may a lot of “rail meat” wondering how they could have their own boat as they watch you slingshot by them.

Numbers make it interesting. If there are 50 boats on the beach and the water it is attention getting. If there are 3 it is just a nice photographic opportunity.

Dan DeLave