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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #205618
03/14/10 04:26 PM
03/14/10 04:26 PM
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To go back to the original question.... I have not read any emotions in Macca's (Andrew's) comments (towards the F16 as a class) thus far. They all appear quite sensible, coming from someone who has vast experience in sailing cats and whatever comes with it.

I have been following this forum for about two years now, and frankly, the emotive and insinuating comments I have read have come from so called 'hard core' F16 forum clubbers, and you guys do not make joining your fleet a very appealing proposition (you may actually be quite different in real life....). The example of starting a discussion with this title is just telling....

I AM very interested in buying a F16 (-like) cat and sail it with my wife and kids, including racing. I have been sailing the Cap for three years and love (the quality of) the product. Now that AHPC appears to have established a serieus dealership in Europe, I think it's about time to trade in my Cap (if that's an option).

Oh, and that does not mean I have given up on F18 sailing (before we get that discussion started again).

I am surely stepping on a few toes here, such is life. But I thought it would be useful for some of you to get some 'outside' feedback to the ranting that seems to go on and on here on this forum.

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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #205619
03/14/10 04:59 PM
03/14/10 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
...... and in my view caters for the 2 up light weight market.


Lightweight for the F16's, or catsailing as a whole? From putting 365#'s on my own Viper, it handles it quite well.


Heavyweight big boys has gotta be the F20, midweight to big boys F18, lightweight duo ( man and women or dad and rugrat ) F16, solo dad ( when he doesn't have a crew ) F16 and don't forget the A class for the techies, that would be my interpretation of things.

Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca] #205625
03/14/10 07:28 PM
03/14/10 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by macca
Stewart,


The Alloy Tornado Masts were the highest quality you can buy but when the class allowed Carbon it was very clear that the Carbon masts were much quicker than the Alloy. So then to be competitive you had to have a carbon mast. Do you want that to happen in the F16?



Are they that much quicker?

I've talked to one of the top Tornado sailors in the US about this subject, and they have said that that's not true.

When the carbon masts were starting to be used there was a certain Tornado team looking for a carbon mast, but couldn't get it in time for the regatta. And this was a Tornado regatta, not some regular mixed fleet regatta so there was going to be really good sailors there.

Guess what, the team that was looking for the Carbon mast kicked everybody's butt in varying conditions at that regatta with an ALLOY mast.

Here is another example...

At the last Global Challenge, there was a Viper that had a carbon mast...Guess what, they didn't get in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th place...Well, I can't remember if they got 4th, but they weren't in the top 3.


I'm tired of this debate about if a Carbon mast is better than the Alloy mast, there have been plenty of instances where that is NOT true.

The only thing carbon does significantly better, is save weight...That's it...nothing else...Maybe stiffer.


smile


Mike

Last edited by mikeborden; 03/14/10 07:30 PM.

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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: mikeborden] #205629
03/14/10 09:05 PM
03/14/10 09:05 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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From Mamaloe above (4 posts total):

...from so called 'hard core' F16 forum clubbers...

Hey Mamaloe, WE 'hard core' clubbers are the ones who have invested OUR time and OUR money to build the F16 class, only to have some butt like Macca come along and start throwing monkey poo all over the board, and he's never even sailed one at any regatta I've seen.

So, given that you and Macca are guests here, at our party, and neither one of you have invested a single cent to the F16 class, why don't you both just stay on the F18 where you are a member?

Until you buy an F16 (with your -own- money, Macca) you really have no reason, or vote, to bitch. You don't like our rules? Stay on the F18!


Blade F16
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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Timbo] #205639
03/15/10 01:49 AM
03/15/10 01:49 AM
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Australia
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Timbo,

You do make it very tempting to join the class, with your attitude I think you should be an official ambassador.



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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: mikeborden] #205640
03/15/10 01:53 AM
03/15/10 01:53 AM
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Australia
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Originally Posted by mikeborden
Originally Posted by macca
Stewart,


The Alloy Tornado Masts were the highest quality you can buy but when the class allowed Carbon it was very clear that the Carbon masts were much quicker than the Alloy. So then to be competitive you had to have a carbon mast. Do you want that to happen in the F16?



Are they that much quicker?

I've talked to one of the top Tornado sailors in the US about this subject, and they have said that that's not true.

When the carbon masts were starting to be used there was a certain Tornado team looking for a carbon mast, but couldn't get it in time for the regatta. And this was a Tornado regatta, not some regular mixed fleet regatta so there was going to be really good sailors there.

Guess what, the team that was looking for the Carbon mast kicked everybody's butt in varying conditions at that regatta with an ALLOY mast.

Here is another example...

At the last Global Challenge, there was a Viper that had a carbon mast...Guess what, they didn't get in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th place...Well, I can't remember if they got 4th, but they weren't in the top 3.


I'm tired of this debate about if a Carbon mast is better than the Alloy mast, there have been plenty of instances where that is NOT true.

The only thing carbon does significantly better, is save weight...That's it...nothing else...Maybe stiffer.


smile


Mike


Ok Mike,

If the Carbon mast is no quicker, why allow it?? the cost for a Carbon mast is many times greater than the Alloy ones so why open the door to such outrageous expenses when your class is pitched at non professionals?

And if the reason is that some of the founding boats had carbon masts then thats fine, grandfather those boats/masts and then for the future restrict it to Alloy and keep the cost of entry down to a reasonable level, therefore further enhancing the F16's growth.


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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: waynemarlow] #205642
03/15/10 02:13 AM
03/15/10 02:13 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Incidently does anybody know of what the latest Viper hull number is,


Talking to Greg on the weekend. From memory, they had boat 78 and 79 in the factory ready to ship. (could have been 88 and 89???)


Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #205643
03/15/10 02:17 AM
03/15/10 02:17 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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I do have to say, the rest of the sailing world spend time removing grams from their boats and you guys don't think 5kg will make much difference. Either they are crazy, or you are kidding yourself.

Why does the F16 class have a min weight if weight does not make much difference. Why not let someone sail an F16 under 100 kg.

If most boats weighed in at 111 to 112, why not set the min weight at 115 and bring those boats up to weight with a bit of lead. Then the heavier moats will be a little closer in weight. The Taipan 4.9 class recognised few boats were being produced under weight, so lifted the min to an achievable target...... it really is not a bad thing.

Last edited by Tornado_ALIVE; 03/15/10 04:08 AM.

Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #205644
03/15/10 02:19 AM
03/15/10 02:19 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Carbon mast T is quicker, not only because of the reduced weight but much reduced pitching. This is where the biggest gain came from.


Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca] #205645
03/15/10 03:02 AM
03/15/10 03:02 AM
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Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
what a lot of bullcrap argument.. very slippery slope!!

lets take that to the extremes.. if a ply boat is as quick why allow foam/glass the grandfather all composite boats and ban all new versions. If a sisal rope boat is no quicker then ban all non-sisal ropes.. .. hell a step further.. if NSW has a speed limit we should ban any car capable of more than that limit.. That line of thinking isn't critically thought out..

would you care to define reasonable level? maybe we should define profit margins inside the class?

Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Stewart] #205647
03/15/10 04:27 AM
03/15/10 04:27 AM
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Australia
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Excellent point Stewart,

You need to choose a suitable level of technology and cost, by default the level at the moment is being dictated by the largest selling boat that complies with the class rules. It is an epoxy foam/glass boat with alloy beams and mast. That is working out fine and the class is growing well by attracting new members, Why put that at risk by allowing such freedoms in the rule that permit somebody to build a boat that is quicker than the benchmark class boat and more expensive. I would be pissed off as a current boat owner if someone came to the intergalactics you guys have with a boat that cost twice mine and I was spanked by someone spending $$ rather than wanting to compete in fair and fun racing. Tell me how the class gains from such a situation?

You want a strong class? you need good racing. To get that you need the boats to be as equal as possible, having such wide freedoms in the rule prevents that from happening unless everyone buys/builds boats to the top level available within the rule.




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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #205648
03/15/10 04:37 AM
03/15/10 04:37 AM
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Brisveagas
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Brisveagas
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
I do have to say, the rest of the sailing world spend time removing grams from their boats and you guys don't think 5kg will make much difference. Either they are crazy, or you are kidding yourself.

Why does the F16 class have a min weight if weight does not make much difference. Why not let someone sail an F16 under 100 kg.

If most boats weighed in at 111 to 112, why not set the min weight at 115 and bring those boats up to weight with a bit of lead. Then the heavier moats will be a little closer in weight. The Taipan 4.9 class recognised few boats were being produced under weight, so lifted the min to an achievable target...... it really is not a bad thing.


+1


Aido
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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Aido] #205649
03/15/10 05:29 AM
03/15/10 05:29 AM
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France
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I don't see the point of discussing that here again. Submit a proposal to the GC, get a vote going to amend the rules.

There is a process to change the rules, and it is not who shout the loudest or the most often.

Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: pepin] #205651
03/15/10 05:32 AM
03/15/10 05:32 AM
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Australia
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Its a discussion forum, hence the discussion...

and correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't start this thread..



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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: pepin] #205652
03/15/10 05:43 AM
03/15/10 05:43 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Just a sugestion (and a reasonable one at that), do what you want, it is your class.

I may come to play soon. Possibly next season.


Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #205654
03/15/10 06:30 AM
03/15/10 06:30 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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From Macca above: "I would be pissed off as a current boat owner if someone came to the intergalactics you guys have with a boat that cost twice mine and I was spanked by someone spending $$ rather than wanting to compete in fair and fun racing. Tell me how the class gains from such a situation?"

Macca, I don't see this as a realistic threat or a reason to carry weight by bringing the rule up to the heaviest boats. What I do see as a threat to the class is Professional cat racers, non-owners, showing up with free, new, factory boats, brand new sails, brand new everything, and racing against guys who have to work for a living and pay for their own boats.

Perhaps instead of having to show a measurement certificate at the Intergalactics, we should require a Bill of Sale?

How about we go with what some of the mono classes have done and implement an "Owner Driver" rule? Then you wouldn't have to worry about it, would you? You could stay on your free F18 and leave us Clubber hacks alone, right?



Blade F16
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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Timbo] #205655
03/15/10 06:40 AM
03/15/10 06:40 AM
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Also from Macca's post above: "That is working out fine and the class is growing well by attracting new members..."

Wow, how can that be? What? With our open rules, NOBODY should be buying new -heavy- boats, right? Nobody! What are these idiots thinking?? Don't they know their very lives are at risk if we don't raise the min. wt. to what ever MACCA thinks would work best for him?

Macca, why don't you go over to the A class forum and tell them they could build cheaper boats and grow their class if they would just raise their min. wt too?! What fools they are!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Timbo] #205657
03/15/10 06:47 AM
03/15/10 06:47 AM
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Australia
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Like I said Timbo, You have my vote as class ambassador.



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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca] #205660
03/15/10 08:02 AM
03/15/10 08:02 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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I'm sorry Andrew, but in my world you don't get to vote, because you have not written a $16,000 check for a boat.

This class is made up of guys who are not professionals, guys who have spent their own money, buying thier own boats and maintaining them. You want a vote? Write the check.

I just heard the A cat guys begging to have you go straighten them out, what are you still doing here? They NEED your valuable input!


Blade F16
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Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca] #205663
03/15/10 08:11 AM
03/15/10 08:11 AM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by macca
You want a strong class? you need good racing. To get that you need the boats to be as equal as possible, having such wide freedoms in the rule prevents that from happening unless everyone buys/builds boats to the top level available within the rule.


I don't follow this. Here in the States what is probably the most widely participated form of racing is motocross. Bikes by different manufactures all fit in a seperate classes in what is basically a formula class, yet all the bikes of that class are very different. Even the same model year to year. I don't remember the rules, but they are not that tight, and are pretty basic. Some are better in certain sections, (call it conditions), than others. That difference in performance can be used to ones advantage, but its always at a cost of something else somewhere else on the track. It should never be strictly sailor vs. sailor. The boat side of things constantly improving forces competitiveness between manufacturers, both in price and quality.


BTW I raced MX for years, never once did I have to have my machine measured. To be fair I do know of guys who had to have bikes torn down because they were whoopin' butt, and displacement of the engine was checked to see if they were cheating. A protest of sorts, but if it was found to be legal, the protestor was liable for paying for the new gaskets.

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