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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #206751
03/25/10 08:59 PM
03/25/10 08:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Phile Offline
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Phile  Offline
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Posts: 88
South Australia
I believe Macca when he says that he is not "employed" by a manufacturer. But that doesn't stop him from acting on behalf of a manufacturer as a paid "consultant" on a contract basis. I employ quite a few people in my company, but that are all contractors. Saves me paying holiday leave, sick leave and super.

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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: ClaytonF16] #206752
03/25/10 09:35 PM
03/25/10 09:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
HJS Offline
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HJS  Offline
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Vic, Australia
Originally Posted by ClaytonF16

Because pushy smart butt like macca with backing from the large manufatcurer ( its no secret who it is)constantly picks at the edge of the current class rules to suit his employers wishes........not the sailors.


Clayton - Stop these ridiculous insinuating statements. The F16 association does not need this kind of garbage. If you REALLY know WHO is paying him… Just say so, otherwise SHUT UP.

It is comments like this that will damage relationships between this class and ALL manufacturers. If you want their support, then stop treating them with such disrespect.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: HJS] #206754
03/25/10 10:04 PM
03/25/10 10:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
Sh!t, 3/4's of the reason I bought a F16 was so I could join the infighting. [Linked Image]

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #206758
03/26/10 03:07 AM
03/26/10 03:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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I am sure the F16 sailor's (from here) veiws are a lot different than that of sailors from the F18, A Class and Tornado class for example. Perhaps this discussion should be on the open forum where there will be less bias and should I say it..... A more experienced view.

And for all those who say you can not build a lighter boat because the class restricts the min weight..... you are correct. But you can sure as hell build a stiffer one with more volume. And to think it would not cost more than an A class and not be a quicker product is sticking your head in the sand.


Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206764
03/26/10 05:05 AM
03/26/10 05:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

..... you are correct. But you can sure as hell build a stiffer one with more volume. And to think it would not cost more than an A class and not be a quicker product is sticking your head in the sand.




Right, the more you are screaming that the sky is falling the more you'll get the same reply.

The facts simply contradict your convictions.

All prices are incl. EU taxes.


High hull volume, stiff platform ?

Viper F16 (with alu mast); 15.950 Euro's (and 23 kg over min. weight)

Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/viper_f16.html


High hull volume, stiff platform AND minimum weight ?

Stealth F16 (with carbon mast stand.) : 15.000 Euro's
Falcon F16 (+ carbon mast upgrade): 18500 Euro's (15.000 with an alu mast and 5 kg over min. weight)
Aussie Blade F16 (+ carbon mast upgrade) : 17.150 Euro's (15.600 with an alu mast and very close to min. weight)

Source : Last quote I know off (Stealth Marine website is currently offline)
Source : http://www.falconmarinellc.com/falcon_pricing_2009.pdf
Source : http://www.formulacatamarans.com/pricing.html

The pricing for the Raptor F16 is not known to me yet



I seem to remember that basic A-class cats start at 17.500 Euro's in the EU market.

"Hot" A-classes like the Geltek flyer 2 are costing significantly more.

Modern F18's are :

Hobie Wildcat 19.815 Euro's.
Nacra Infusion 18.250 Euro's (add 1000 Euro's for race package = standard on F16's !)
Wasn't the Cap F18 18.500 Euro's a few years back ?
I wonder what the C2 F18 will be sold for ?
Even the outdated Tiger F18 is still 16.750 Euro in basic setup (race package costs 2500 bucks extra) Together no less then 19.250 Euro's !

Interesting detail is that the race package on the Tiger and Infusion actually contains the snuffer setup etc; pretty much essentials when it comes to racing; also contains carbon fibre boards etc. All of these things come standard on F16's !

I dare say that any modern F18 is between 19.000 and 20.500 Euro's on the EU market (incl. taxes) and for that you get daggerboards that weight 3 kg a piece (1.8 kg on a F16) !

In fact it seems that the F18's are more expensive then the A's and it doesn't seem to hold the F18 class back much at all !

This also disproofs the "believe" that one can actually force inexpensive boats by tightly regulating the class and using only cheap and heavy materials/components.

Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/hobie-polyester-55/
Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/nacra_f18_infusion.html
Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/polyester-55/495-hobie-tiger.html


So, I don't see the problem at all really.

In fact, we have actually PROVEN that our vision is the right one.

F16's, superior boats for less money !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/26/10 05:34 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Wouter] #206765
03/26/10 05:34 AM
03/26/10 05:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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taipanfc  Offline
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Posts: 539
Originally Posted by Wouter

In fact, we have actually PROVEN that our vision is the right one.

F16's, superior boats for less money !

Wouter


Is that actually translating into sales of boats? Wildcat is EUR3,865 more than a Viper, but on the front page of Sailing Anarchy today is the following:

The F-18 catamaran class continues its wicked ways, with new boat and sail designs popping up everywhere, and consistently big fleets popping up seemingly everywhere. From the SA-Europe desk of John Casey comes this short report:

Last week was a special one at Hobie Cat Holland. 15 new Wildcats came in just in time for the sailing season to start, and more are on the way. Almost all of the trade-ins were sold as well. The racing F18 fleet in the Netherlands should grow by heaps this year. We’ll see, as last year there were a steady 50 cats on the line for every regatta. A Dragoon and more Hobie 16s came in as well. My sports trainer and best friend, Rob Topper, always told me, “Never worry about how much you spend on the sport you love.”


Moths are one helluva expensive boat at USD21,500, but they can't build them quick enough with a waiting list of at least 3 months and orders coming from around the globe.

I am not seeing the these type of numbers being reported in the F16 class. This is probably where the discussion point should be.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Wouter] #206766
03/26/10 05:39 AM
03/26/10 05:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Not selling me Wouter.

An A class is very little boat for what you pay for. Forget the length, think about what is on an A. 1 sail, very little fittings and ropes, no spinnaker equiptment.....

An F16 is very simular to an F18 in this regards and also require a boat of MUCH greater volume and strenght than an A.

Forget the F16s mentioned above, I keep seeing close to min weight and 5gk over. It is not min weight. Boats should be built a few kg lighter than min and brought up to weight with correctors. Yes, you can add carbon masts and beams but the price keeps going up. Add more volume in the hulls, use more carbon in the hulls, nomex, autoclave...... Then you will get a much stiffer, quicker boat that is at min.

I find it amusing that people like Macca, Brett, Greg and Bundy come on here with a hell of a lot more industry experience then anyone else here and are told they are wrong. Your head is that buried in the sand you can not hear good advice from those who would know.

With the Viper drive in Europe about to start, you will see the F16 grow into a more serious class and loose rules WILL be exploited. Your vision has proven nothing other than getting a class off the ground. Keeping it going in the right direction will be another story.


Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: HJS] #206767
03/26/10 05:43 AM
03/26/10 05:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Western Europe
ClaytonF16 Offline
newbie
ClaytonF16  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Western Europe
Originally Posted by HJS
Clayton - Stop these ridiculous insinuating statements. The F16 association does not need this kind of garbage. If you REALLY know WHO is paying him… Just say so, otherwise SHUT UP.


So obviously YOU are comfortable with manufacturers & their representatives dishing up garbage & incinuations and dont appreciate f16 sailors standing up to them.

Could this mean you are also associatied with a manufacturer.? AHPC?



Originally Posted by HJS

It is comments like this that will damage relationships between this class and ALL manufacturers. If you want their support, then stop treating them with such disrespect.


Disrespect....hmmm....no dissappointment is more the issue. This individual claims no current backing by a manufacturer, (he is obviously curently is Aussie land), but when macca fly's back to Europe he assemblems boats for Narca, assists in the delivery of the same boats, provides customer support & gets to go racing onthe same product.

So which is the better of two evils here........disrespect or dishonesty.

The F16 class has a set of rules - if you dont like them dont play

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: taipanfc] #206768
03/26/10 05:43 AM
03/26/10 05:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

Moths are one helluva expensive boat at USD21,500, but they can't build them quick enough ... This is probably where the discussion point should be.



Actually, I feel you have a point there !

In my opinion, making the F16's heavier or more restricted is not a solution for that problem (as these are not in any way related to the real problems).

Doing more promo, improving the dealorships and support network and getting out there with well skilled crews that show what these boats can do will be alot more effective.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206769
03/26/10 05:50 AM
03/26/10 05:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Im sure an A class skipper has different views.. Then Im sure a C class skipper has as well or even an ORMA skipper as well as maxi-mono hull.. I have views on their classes.. But Im not going to go into their forums just to stir.
But if you wish to go into the open forum and ask "Is the Tornado or F18 too heavy or the A class too light".. please feel free.. grin

Fact is you and macca were invited to give input when the class was being developed. Fact is you didn't.


Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206771
03/26/10 06:08 AM
03/26/10 06:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

I find it amusing that people like Macca, Brett, Greg and Bundy come on here with a hell of a lot more industry experience then anyone else here and are told they are wrong.



Actually, we're saying that you and Macca are wrong.

Don't drag other persons like Greg, Brett and Darren in the mix because you can't hold the line on your own. It's a sign of weakness and dishonourable.

I've found the other persons alot more nuanced in their opinions.

Other then that I think Clayton said it best :"The F16 class has a set of rules - if you dont like them dont play"

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/26/10 06:09 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206772
03/26/10 06:12 AM
03/26/10 06:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Sorry Stuart, I was never invited to give any input when the class was being developed and I doupt Macca was also. I am also sure the other class's you mentioned above would also share simular views on the subjects we raised. They have elected to be very development driven class's and accept the costs assosiated with it. The F16 class wants to be a formula class, very open to development but does not accept this would drive the boats up dramatically in price if the class becomes competitive enough and stakes high enough to warrant.


Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206773
03/26/10 06:15 AM
03/26/10 06:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
so the goal is to make an ultimate F16.. needing 5 kg correctors.

ps you dont need an autoclave with nomex.. That is so 1980s.. get with the program boy!!

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206774
03/26/10 06:19 AM
03/26/10 06:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Lets all (Including Wouter) STFU and go sailing. Opps; I can't as I'm damaged; I'm going skiing.

See ya later.



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206775
03/26/10 06:21 AM
03/26/10 06:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
sorry mate.. but you, macca, in fact the world was.. go back into our archives!!

It was an open discussion.. anyone who wanted could voice their opinion.. you macca didnt.. sorry..

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Wouter] #206776
03/26/10 06:21 AM
03/26/10 06:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

I find it amusing that people like Macca, Brett, Greg and Bundy come on here with a hell of a lot more industry experience then anyone else here and are told they are wrong.



Actually, we're saying that you and Macca are wrong.

Don't drag other persons like Greg, Brett and Darren in the mix because you can't hold the line on your own. It's a sign of weakness and dishonourable.


Wouter, would you care to comment on this interview with Greg Goodall. Echoing exactly the same points. I guess he is wrong too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFzZ9D4WAD8


Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: scooby_simon] #206777
03/26/10 06:24 AM
03/26/10 06:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
swap my trudging thru mud with mozzies, carrying nasty buggies, and dodging high speed lead projectiles for your skiing trip!!

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206778
03/26/10 06:25 AM
03/26/10 06:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

They have elected to be very development driven class's and accept the costs assosiated with it. The F16 class wants to be a formula class, very open to development but does not accept this would drive the boats up dramatically in price if the class becomes competitive enough and stakes high enough to warrant.



That is a strawman argument Stephen. First you postulate that we don't and then you blame us for it.

I see in fact that the F16 sailors embrace "controlled development" under the given rules (think 1.8 kg daggers instead of 3.0 gk daggers) and to our surprise it has not raised costs beyond the F18's or A's yet. We're also now at the 3rd generation of F16's and I see no (public) fits by owners of 1st generation boats. We all seem to be very content with what we got here. Older boats get sold on and grow the class while the more serious sailors are on new designs.

The guys throwing annual fits at every start of a new EU season (souring the market ?) are not F16 boat owners at all.


In fact, it is actually you and macca who don't accept any development in the F16 class and the costs that may or may not be associated with that. We are willing to take the risk, you are not. So make up your mind and get involved (and accept the situation as it is) or stay out of the class (and let us be).

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206779
03/26/10 06:25 AM
03/26/10 06:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Stewart
sorry mate.. but you, macca, in fact the world was.. go back into our archives!!

It was an open discussion.. anyone who wanted could voice their opinion.. you macca didnt.. sorry..


The F16 class was not on my radar back then as was many other classes. I never saw these threads, they were never brought to my attention, so no I was not invited.


Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Wouter] #206780
03/26/10 06:29 AM
03/26/10 06:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Wouter


Quote

They have elected to be very development driven class's and accept the costs assosiated with it. The F16 class wants to be a formula class, very open to development but does not accept this would drive the boats up dramatically in price if the class becomes competitive enough and stakes high enough to warrant.



That is a strawman argument Stephen. First you postulate that we don't and then you blame us for it.

I see in fact that the F16 sailors embrace "controlled development" under the given rules (think 1.8 kg daggers instead of 3.0 gk daggers) and to our surprise it has not raised costs beyond the F18's or A's yet. We're also now at the 3rd generation of F16's and I see no (public) fits by owners of 1st generation boats. We all seem to be very content with what we got here. Older boats get sold on and grow the class while the more serious sailors are on new designs.

The guys throwing annual fits at every start of a new EU season (souring the market ?) are not F16 boat owners at all.


In fact, it is actually you and macca who don't accept any development in the F16 class and the costs that may or may not be associated with that. We are willing to take the risk, you are not. So make up your mind and get involved (and accept the situation as it is) or stay out of the class (and let us be).

Wouter


I will be taking the risk soon. And I am defending people who have been told they are wrong (both on and off line). I did not start the $hit fight but have every right to defend and agree with someone else's comments. It is a discussuion forum isn't it?????


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