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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209617
04/27/10 10:44 AM
04/27/10 10:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I know plenty of guys who spend large sums of money to save ounces on their boats, like buying titanium bolts to swap out for stainless,etc. .You are going to have a hard time convincing these people to carry an "extra"life jacket ...
If their need to "save ounces" outweighs their need to obey the law and follow the rules, then nothing I say will convince them. I trust that none of us here fall into that group. Does anybody here honestly believe that they have to break the law in order to win a race?



Believe it!:

[Linked Image]

This competitor opened up his already ligthweight Zhik (CE Approved) jacket and removed more "bulk" floation, re-stitching with the white thread. Point was to make it less wind draggy...not so much to make it lighter. This was at a US National Tornado event. There were others at the event doing similar alterations.

crazy


Last edited by Tornado; 04/27/10 10:45 AM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209619
04/27/10 11:00 AM
04/27/10 11:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,291
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Actually, Mark, the OA for the event was US SAILING and ABYC was the host. They were mute on equipment inspections - they put it onto the competitors where it should be, but then made some things not protestable by "a boat." What occurred prior to the first start was one competitor said to another, "if you wear that, I will protest you." The scuttlebutt is that the response from the coach was, "you can't." So after the last race, the girl went to the PRO to complain. The PRO felt obligated to lodge the protest since the competitor couldn't. Only the winner was protested, though there were many breaking the same rule.

I just learned last night that at a major college event here last weekend, an on-the-water umpire put up the black flag on a girl that was not wearing a PFD. In the room, she told a plausible story why she didn't have it on at the moment and she was not DSQ'd. The team that had the most to lose did not file an appeal because they'd beaten the PFD girl's team... but then a scoring error was discovered the next day that flip-flops their finish position. What do you want to bet the appeal gets filed now? In the mean time, a judge has indicated that the umpire erred and cannot file against a competitor for a PFD violation.

I love this game.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209620
04/27/10 11:19 AM
04/27/10 11:19 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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well, it all could be avoided by wearing a USCG approved jacket.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209622
04/27/10 11:21 AM
04/27/10 11:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
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France
pepin Offline
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So far you talked about US vs CE PFD and the fact that the CE ones are more comfortable. Fine. When I was in the US I was using a US PFD and yes, it was bulky and uncomfortable. I see the point of using a CE one for around the buoys racing. As long as it is tolerated by the "class culture", fine. Not that I care, being in Europe...

But I would protest in a heartbeat a competitor wearing a modified PFD. Not because I would gain an advantage in doing so, but because as safety coxwain at my sailing club I am aware that a properly fitted PFD can save lives. And I would hate to see a slippery slope where all competitors start modifying their PFDs because "this other guy did it". I would not give a damn about "class culture" in that case.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209623
04/27/10 11:29 AM
04/27/10 11:29 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
well, it all could be avoided by wearing a USCG approved jacket.


What is that... an echo???

I've only said that about 3 separate times here, no one has yet given a valid answer to dispute this.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209624
04/27/10 11:33 AM
04/27/10 11:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,291
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Ahh, my black-and-white friends. Nobody is or can dispute it. Please remember that I began this thread with the acknowledgement that a CE vest doesn't meet the rules most of the time in the US... the conversation that interests me is why it is such a widely ignored rule.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209625
04/27/10 11:44 AM
04/27/10 11:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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John,
I have a different regatta in mind.

It all comes down to judgment.... there is no way around it.
If the class doesn't make it clear what the unwritten standards are, you KNOW, some individuals will use the rules as a weapon to win..... IMO, Those classes tend not to thrive! College sailing??... well it maybe a good thing that most of those sailors don't continue in the sport.

I think the choices are Change the Class... or Change classes.
Heck when I got an A cat... I was proudly told that the class NA's had not had a protest hearing in years... Hmmm... the class culture was clear... take the penalty on the water.... If you really had a tough call... use the arbitration process.

(I am not totally convinced this is a good culture in the extreme... but the horror stories in other classes are pretty grim so the class culture is fine.... at any rate... it was certainly clear to me what the culture was with respect to protests.)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209626
04/27/10 11:49 AM
04/27/10 11:49 AM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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How is this thread different from the rule thread we just went though regarding leeward boats. The outcome of that thread was the rule is the rule and it must be followed. Adjust as you must to follow the rule.

This PFD thread seams to paralleling that thread but with much different attitudes. We don't get to pick and choose what rules we want to follow!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209627
04/27/10 11:53 AM
04/27/10 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Well John, it's not the only rule that widely ignored it's just one that is easily seen, and there is always a rationalization at the ready whenever an infraction is pointed out.

Also with the rationalizations used here why should anyone obey the mark of the course off the Cape during the Tybee 500? The penalty has never been enforced and with the advice given here people should continue to ignore the mark until the OA decides to change the rule. Or you could just wait for the U.S. government to enforce the rule but the outcome will probably be criticized for being over the top. I mean really who the F!@# is the government to tell us what we can and can't do?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209628
04/27/10 11:53 AM
04/27/10 11:53 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Ahh, my black-and-white friends. Nobody is or can dispute it. Please remember that I began this thread with the acknowledgement that a CE vest doesn't meet the rules most of the time in the US... the conversation that interests me is why it is such a widely ignored rule.


A protest or two could cure that.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209629
04/27/10 12:06 PM
04/27/10 12:06 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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ah... come on Dave.... shorting the mark on the tybee is clearly unfair and cheating.....

Nobody is arguing that one and you raise a false equivalence.

Wearing a CE versus a coast guard jacket is breaking the rule. no question. black and white.. If protested... RAF or go to the room and take the dsq.

... Is it cheating?
I argue.. class culture (before my time) says No.
In your class.... feel free to say yes and make the class a letter of the rule class.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209630
04/27/10 12:21 PM
04/27/10 12:21 PM
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brucat Offline
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Black and white is easy. Easy is good. There are more than enough difficult things in this sport (especially for a PRO), why can't we take the easy ones where we can?

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209631
04/27/10 12:26 PM
04/27/10 12:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Why... because it's a performance sport... the game is to push the envelope within a rule set... the PFD rule is not viewed quite the same way as sail area.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209632
04/27/10 12:34 PM
04/27/10 12:34 PM
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brucat Offline
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You're pushing outside the rule set. The rule couldn't possibly be any simpler. It's only when you try to figure out reasons that you don't like the rule that you run into trouble.

This is (or at least should be) such a non-issue, it's ridiculous.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209633
04/27/10 12:34 PM
04/27/10 12:34 PM
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Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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So if people believe there is a performance advantage to using CE vests over USCG vests (weight, air drag & comfort) then there needs to be a mechanism to protest there use until they are deemed legal to level the field.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209634
04/27/10 01:04 PM
04/27/10 01:04 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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So are you saying any rule that doesn't allow a competitive advantage if broken should be removed?

Also if you're going to put your eggs in the 'it doesn't provide a competitive edge' basket it could be argued that the CE jacket allows a competitor to move more freely and efficiently than someone wearing an USCG approved jacket and therefore the CE jacket sailor has a competitive advantage.

We can sit here and debate this all day but and the end of the day itís a rule, itís being broken and should be enforced just like any other rule. There is no wiggle room with this rule and USSailing went out of their way to make sure there is no wiggle room.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tornado] #209636
04/27/10 01:28 PM
04/27/10 01:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado
So if people believe there is a performance advantage to using CE vests over USCG vests (weight, air drag & comfort) then there needs to be a mechanism to protest there use until they are deemed legal to level the field.


Not necessarily.. This CE/CG issue is not subject to a level playing field treatment...That's just a red herring issue in the discussion..

Performance issues are handled in the rules of the class... It's not in any international class class rules which deal with performance boundaries in various ways.. (formula SMOD and One Design). Sail area is viewed as a performance factor and rules for a level playing field are established... CE/ Coastguard jackets are not viewed this way...

It's also not in the RRS of sailing. which is not dealing with performance issues.

It's uniquely in the US Prescriptions as a safety prescription. You can protest the letter of the law violation... which is on safety equipment requirements... not that it's a performance issue. The rational as to why you might pick a CE vest or not carry the throwable is irrelevant.

No one argues that you can't file the protest and win.
It's Black and White... present your vest... CE or CG Boom! .... As Dave says... its a rule...

Being in the prescriptions... its not a world wide rule... In some classes... the rule is not enforced by the class members because of the class culture.

The question is... In the Tornado class... should you have filed the protest? My experience in the class was that such a protest would be frowned upon...(class culture and your judgment).

Obviously, in the F18's... expect Dave to protest any individuals who don't carry the throw able and does not have a CG vest on board.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tornado] #209637
04/27/10 01:40 PM
04/27/10 01:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by Tornado
...This competitor opened up his already ligthweight Zhik (CE Approved) jacket and removed more "bulk" floation, re-stitching with the white thread. Point was to make it less wind draggy...not so much to make it lighter. This was at a US National Tornado event. There were others at the event doing similar alterations.

I'm not passing judgement on this particular incident, but I would characterize that kind of action as:
Intentionally breaking a rule for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage
or, more simply as:
cheating.

Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209639
04/27/10 02:15 PM
04/27/10 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
It all comes down to judgment.... there is no way around it.

While I agree that good judgement is very important, I don't think that "judgement" is the crux of this issue. I feel that the key point is "sportsmanship". Good sportsmanship may sometimes mean overlooking trivial infractions, but it always means following the rules - all the rules, even the ones you may not like.

Quote
If the class doesn't make it clear what the unwritten standards are, you KNOW, some individuals will use the rules as a weapon to win..... IMO, Those classes tend not to thrive!

Well, by their very nature, unwritten standards tend to be unclear. I've sailed with classes where protesting is highly discouraged. My observation is not that "some individuals will use the rules as a weapon to win", but that some will take advantage of that "culture" to get away with breaking the rules. That's when honest competitors get discouraged and leave.

Let me give a more concrete example. In a multi-class regatta, I was sailing on starboard tack and had to take action to avoid another boat in a different class on port tack. I hailed "protest", he did his turns, and we sailed on. When we got to shore, the other skipper complained that I had nothing to gain and should not have protested him. He felt that I had wronged him by enforcing the rules. So, I asked him "What makes you think that the rules shouldn't apply to you"?

I ask you the same question. What makes you think the rules shouldn't apply to you?

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209640
04/27/10 02:26 PM
04/27/10 02:26 PM
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Tony_F18 Offline
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From what I understand it isnt even required to actually wear the PFD? But it must only be easilly accesible?
So basically you could stuff both into a bag and tie it to the tramp and no-one would be able to protest you?
(Assuming you sail in open-class obviously).

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