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Re: [Re: Smiths_Cat] #210289
05/05/10 10:18 AM
05/05/10 10:18 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
I think if you read carefully nobody is criticising the excellent F16 and Viper results at Eurocat.


MP*MULTIHULLS
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Re: [Re: HJS] #210291
05/05/10 10:28 AM
05/05/10 10:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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In true Aussie baiting style. I am not sure how my statement on what is happening at Datchet can be misconstrued and linked to my criticism of not using the F16 handicap.

IMO you are either in or out, join forces with the other manufacturers in the F16 box rule ( after all they initially were around 125 kilos to begin with )or set up your own 1 design ( would you really want to be racing the other 104 compliant boats, they are not the most modern of designs and the racing would quickly die through lack of competition )

Re: [Re: pepin] #210294
05/05/10 11:05 AM
05/05/10 11:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Originally Posted by pepin
The only traveling I'll do this year is to the ECPR


I'll be at the ECPR even if my shoulder is not proper fixed; might be wanting to find a good crew; do not fancy 60 odd miles with a still to be fixed shoulder....Will know more re shoulder in another couple of weeks!



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: [Re: taipanfc] #210315
05/05/10 01:37 PM
05/05/10 01:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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Originally Posted by taipanfc

Over to you F16 (and this is really directed at the Euro guys). You have been talking on this forum for 7 or 8 years. Really time to start turning up at the big regattas if you want to be noticed and not known as an Internet class.


Sorry for not spending more time talking about it on the internet, but I've been too busy getting out and sailing F16.

We're back from a great long weekend at the Bala open, I will be doing Rutland open in a fortnight, we'll both be doing the Gower Challenge the weekend after that, and we're looking at a couple of options for the weekend after that too.

I've done Eurocat before, but from a practical perspective it's a real pain as the UK and French bank holidays don't line up, which means Ann can't sail.

Paul

Re: [Re: pdwarren] #210322
05/05/10 04:11 PM
05/05/10 04:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 404
Chattanooga, TN
Joanna Offline
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Joanna  Offline
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So why does the Euro rating system not have a single rating for all F16's like the US system does?


Joanna

Blade F16
"Too Sharp to Touch"
Re: [Re: Joanna] #210325
05/05/10 04:43 PM
05/05/10 04:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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The two systems in use in Europe (Texel and SCHRS) are both measurement based, which means that you can take any boat, measure it, and get a rating. There are ratings for the formula boats such as F16 and F18, but those are based on a fully optimised boat, i.e. minimum weight, maximum sail area, maximum length/beam etc. The Viper is not minimum weight, so can race off a slower rating in a mixed event. In an F16 event, all boats race on the water.

Paul

Re: [Re: Joanna] #210327
05/05/10 05:01 PM
05/05/10 05:01 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Hi Joanna
The US Portsmouth rating is based on results of previous races. In Europe we have a choice but the two main Catamaran rating systems are calculated not on results but boat measurements. So because the Viper is 20+kg (44+lbs) heavier its rating isn't the same as the lighter F16 104-107kg (229-235lbs) min weight.
In reality its not that big a deal but sometimes this issue can bring out the worst in people.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: [Re: Mark P] #210328
05/05/10 05:12 PM
05/05/10 05:12 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Hi Paul
Looks like you posted your reply just as I started to draft mine.
How was Bala? It wasn't the warmest Spring Bank Holiday I can remember and having completed three races last Monday in some particularly choppy conditions with gusts in excess of 20knots I am still feeling pretty beaten up today. I did go looking on the Bala website but nothing has been published.
Whilst discussing websites looks like Zandvoort have applied for planning approval for a new Clubhouse, I wonder if there will be two changing rooms, one for either sex!
See you next week at The Rutland Cat Open
Mark


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: [Re: Mark P] #210335
05/05/10 09:34 PM
05/05/10 09:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
SCHRS has two ratings for F16's Texel has one rating

SCHRS
Formula 16 1.008
Formula 16 Cat Boat 0.982

Add in the Viper with a third rating...( 1.040??)

What do your competitors say about all of the ratings?
Fair? BS? or irrelevant... go play by yourself?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: [Re: Mark Schneider] #210337
05/06/10 02:35 AM
05/06/10 02:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
SCHRS has two ratings for F16's Texel has one rating

SCHRS
Formula 16 1.008
Formula 16 Cat Boat 0.982

Add in the Viper with a third rating...( 1.040??)

What do your competitors say about all of the ratings?
Fair? BS? or irrelevant... go play by yourself?


No probs when we sail as a class; first over the line wins.

The viper is carrying more lard; under SCHRS if they want to sail as a Viper (so not an F16) thay can claim the slower rating.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: [Re: Mark Schneider] #210338
05/06/10 02:39 AM
05/06/10 02:39 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
I can't rally speak for other competitors but having been brought in a small Club with various Classes I have come to accept Handicap Racing including the inherent pitfalls.
From a personal point of view I find the SCHRS rating system to be the most inaccurate. A single handed F16 is rarely faster than either a F18, A Class or 2up F16 and yet their given rating doesn't really reflect this. Hence, when I became the Clubs Sailing Captain we changed to the TEXEL Rating system which to my mind is as good as you can expect.
However, whilst racing at Open Meetings in the UK you just have to accept that they are probably going to be using SCHRS and for some reason people here tend to think they are obliged to do so but don't ask me why.
If you haven't got the numbers to make up a separate fleet at these Open Meetings you end up racing in the handicap fleet but at the end of the day you probably knew this before you committed and traveled and so when you arrive and compete I tend not to worry about the various Classes and race solely against the other F16's, especially on the first day and depending on ones results compared to the other Classes the same happens during the following races.
So in essence I would imagine the answer to your question would be a mixture of all your suggestions, Fair, Irrelevant and go play by yourself. It's just up to the given individual how much emphasis or importance is given to each one.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: [Re: Mark P] #210339
05/06/10 03:36 AM
05/06/10 03:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
So what rating did the Spitfires use?


Re: [Re: pepin] #210346
05/06/10 08:08 AM
05/06/10 08:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Buccaneer  Offline
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Posts: 1,479
Thailand
BTW - What was the crew weight for the winning team?


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005
Re: [Re: Buccaneer] #210353
05/06/10 08:53 AM
05/06/10 08:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
119kgs


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: [Re: mikeborden] #210364
05/06/10 09:49 AM
05/06/10 09:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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for those that are metric impaired - 260 lbs


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: [Re: David Ingram] #210372
05/06/10 11:15 AM
05/06/10 11:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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I should have done that...:)

sorry...:)



Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: [Re: mikeborden] #210382
05/06/10 11:59 AM
05/06/10 11:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Spitfires sailed 2 ratings:

1.044 for the standard
1.038 for the Spitfire S (with bigger main).


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: [Re: Gilo] #210388
05/06/10 12:34 PM
05/06/10 12:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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So... in an SCHRS Regatta you could have 6 maybe 7 possible ratings (depending on boat and configuration)on the course with F16, Spitfires and Vipers (single and double handed) that could all be called F16 boats.

Would it not be better to say that what the fleet is about is level rated racing and just consider the F16 box rule to set the ceiling of performance?

Sure beats arguing over what the class boat weight should be and gets sailors to align with the larger notion of racing 16 foot boats within the defined F16 Box.

The marketing and the reality are a bit at odds on the race course. The current reality looks more like your typical struggle for one design market share dominance then Formula Racing.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: [Re: waynemarlow] #210392
05/06/10 01:00 PM
05/06/10 01:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
AUS
Bundy Offline
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Bundy  Offline
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Posts: 16
AUS
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Bundy

The only evidence that the F16 fleet is active is on a forum but not on the water.

We want F16, as we like the concept but the F16 Class needs to help itself and become active.

Cheers
Bundy

Sorry Bundy but the above is such an arrogant statement, take Datchet for example, I think we have something like 10 F16's on site and some 3 -4 FX1's, not all are sailed together at the same time, but most regularly are sailed at some stage.

Only some are raced and most are sailed for pleasure and there lies the nub, not everyone races.

Most cannot afford to travel to Europe to participate and in fact very few want to travel just at the moment with the UK economy as it is. One only has to look at the GB participating crews at that race and they are all closely associated either by family associations to dealers / manufacturers ( sponsorship ) or are very active sailors wanting to improve against top sailors.

AHPC and B2 are the first F16 compliant manufacturer to start to throw money at marketing and getting the boats out there in the wider public view, and that is what has been so sorely missed in the F16 scheme of things. You will do well in my opinion as your boat will become the boat to own as most people will see the Viper in numbers regardless whether it is the best boat or not, that unfortunately is just the way of the marketing led world we live in.

But, and here is the big but, boats sold to owners wishing to race is only a tiny proportion of overall boats sold and yet you seem to equate F16 activity to those boats which race at large European based races held only a few times a year. You are on a hiding to nothing if that is the case. Yes you will sell a few boats in the first few years to racers but those will quickly dry up as those racers move on or already own a Viper.

The big sales numbers are the hidden owners such as at Datchet, who by choice do not travel, nor race, but enjoy sailing a F16 because it is light weight, fast and can handle both 1 or two up crews.


Hi Wayne,

The intention was not to be arrogant but to find out where you all are, as I said I could not find any evidence, now your email is revealing that you are out there. Maybe I need to come to you. Chris Sproat is going to email me the GBR races calendar.


Re: [Re: Bundy] #210399
05/06/10 02:31 PM
05/06/10 02:31 PM
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Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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We'd be glad to see you over here.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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