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Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: pgp] #211071
05/14/10 11:49 AM
05/14/10 11:49 AM
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oxj Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Forget we for the moment. What do YOU want? Specifically.

Mike, catamaran sailing is DONE for the Olympics. I've no interest in the remainder.


This.

Ok, no we. YOU the multihull sailor. US Sailing does not want you (although your membership dues are quite welcome), does not support you, and would rather not have to deal with you altogether.

Ever done the Miami OCR on the T? That regatta is a perfect example of how US Sailing views you. You are just a pest with a boat that takes up too much space.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: brucat] #211073
05/14/10 11:55 AM
05/14/10 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Guys, please...

There is no "#2" that's even close to ISAF. If ISAF blows it, sailing is DONE for the Olympics. IOC simply isn't going to be looking for a "#2" organizing autority for sailing. There is a very long line of other sports on the doorstep, with FAR more organization and money than anything a #2 sailing group has on the table.

Mike


I don't see us as a #2 organization for sailing. I see us as a #1 organization for multihull sailing.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: David Ingram] #211074
05/14/10 11:57 AM
05/14/10 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Olli,

Even if we do get organized and get enough clout so the IOC will listen to us I'm not convinced we will get the type of racing we want. I really do suspect the IOC will go the directing TeamVMG described and is that a goal we want to work towards? Speaking for myself I'd rather spend my energy elsewhere.

Also ALL large organizations carry some level of corruption and a national/international multihull organization will have the same issues. Some classes will be favored over others and those lesser appreciated classes will cry foul. No, burning the house down and starting over is not an answer.

Do you really think you'll get a following for a plan that basically says 'burn it down, someone else will figure out how to rebuild it'?


Dave, shouldn't you get busy working so you can sail both days this weekend? I'll let you sail the C2 on Sunday...

Last edited by oxj; 05/14/10 12:10 PM.
Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: oxj] #211075
05/14/10 12:02 PM
05/14/10 12:02 PM
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pgp Offline
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Progress! smile The reference to "you" was the request for a specific course of action.

I'm unwilling to walk away from USS, yet, because of Alter Cup. Imo, AC is still a very worthwhile event. Mind you, that has nothing to do with any support for USS! My support is for Alter Cup.

I recently attended a sailing camp and it was an eye opener. That is now my prefered form of sailing event. Not that I'm willing to abandon my favorite regattas, I'd just like to see some sort of training combined with them.

So specifically, I would like to join in a group that supports some of the old standby regattas, trains seriously and supports Alter Cup. For me the training, with the attendant time and money, is aimed at improving my AC performance, such as it is.

If WE can coalesce into such a group, I think catamaran sailing will do just fine.



Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: pgp] #211078
05/14/10 12:12 PM
05/14/10 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by pgp
Progress! smile The reference to "you" was the request for a specific course of action.

I'm unwilling to walk away from USS, yet, because of Alter Cup. Imo, AC is still a very worthwhile event. Mind you, that has nothing to do with any support for USS! My support is for Alter Cup.

I recently attended a sailing camp and it was an eye opener. That is now my prefered form of sailing event. Not that I'm willing to abandon my favorite regattas, I'd just like to see some sort of training combined with them.

So specifically, I would like to join in a group that supports some of the old standby regattas, trains seriously and supports Alter Cup. For me the training, with the attendant time and money, is aimed at improving my AC performance, such as it is.

If WE can coalesce into such a group, I think catamaran sailing will do just fine.



The AC is the only reason I (very reluctantly) keep renewing my membership. I also do support that event.

It is my belief that it is happening this year not because of USS but in spite of it. I could be wrong, but if certain key folks at USS had their way we would not be having it this year.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: oxj] #211079
05/14/10 12:17 PM
05/14/10 12:17 PM
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smile Money does that to people. IF the catamaran community abandons Alter Cup, USS could appropriate that money for the 5kt leaners.

As long as there is a multihull presence in USS there is the possibility of a legal challenge to any such appropriation.

Last edited by pgp; 05/14/10 12:19 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: pgp] #211085
05/14/10 01:29 PM
05/14/10 01:29 PM
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Issaquah, WA, USA
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Another bright spot in advancement of Multihulls in US SAILING, is the inclusion of the Hobie 16's in the Junior Olympics at Rock Hall, MD this year, see http://www.rockhallyachtclub.org/jo/

Taking Grandson Dan to this Event.

Caleb Tarleton
US SAILING Multihull Council

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: oxj] #211086
05/14/10 01:35 PM
05/14/10 01:35 PM
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by oxj


The AC is the only reason I (very reluctantly) keep renewing my membership. I also do support that event.

It is my belief that it is happening this year not because of USS but in spite of it. I could be wrong, but if certain key folks at USS had their way we would not be having it this year.


It's complicated, and I've probably already said too much.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: David Ingram] #211091
05/14/10 02:57 PM
05/14/10 02:57 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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My two cents:

ISAF's actual decisions do not necessarily follow the advice of its comissions. If they do follow their advice this time, it will be good news for the least expensive and more popular classes, like the Kite, Windsurfer and Laser.

It is possible that a one-design A Class with spi would fit in, as it has been proposed in the past, but the need remains for an inexpensive entry level cat that could fight against those three (plus the Optimist) as a cool affordable toy that is also able to achieve Olympic status. I am not sure if it can be done.


Luiz
Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: David Ingram] #211096
05/14/10 03:40 PM
05/14/10 03:40 PM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by oxj


The AC is the only reason I (very reluctantly) keep renewing my membership. I also do support that event.

It is my belief that it is happening this year not because of USS but in spite of it. I could be wrong, but if certain key folks at USS had their way we would not be having it this year.


It's complicated, and I've probably already said too much.


There is something very wrong with that picture!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: Luiz] #211102
05/14/10 04:21 PM
05/14/10 04:21 PM

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MarkMT
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18' singlehander with spin would be v. cool, definitely!

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: ] #211104
05/14/10 04:52 PM
05/14/10 04:52 PM
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Mark, not you too! IOC says, "We don't want you to come to our party!" and the response from the sailors is "Fantastic! Can we sail this new boat?"


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: pgp] #211105
05/14/10 05:12 PM
05/14/10 05:12 PM

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Not at all smile I was just thinking of you - singlehanded with spin - this idea is perfect for you to launch your Olympic career! And obviously the pinnacle of made-for-tv water-borne athleticism.

To be honest I've been following this thread only very casually in the face of some work pressures (people, stop posting cat sailing videos!), but I thought the problem was less with the IOC than with the ISAF. No?

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: ] #211110
05/14/10 05:55 PM
05/14/10 05:55 PM
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pgp Offline
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Who knows!? The only thing certain is there is no place for catamarans.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: pgp] #211113
05/14/10 06:49 PM
05/14/10 06:49 PM
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I think the problem is specifically with ISAF. The IOC issued certian guidelines as to the growth and commitment that they wanted to see from each of the 28 sports that are represented in the Olympics. ISAF spent a great deal of time outlining their stategy for the future, and then went the opposite direction from their outline. we all know what, why and how this happened so no point in regurgitating this again. I do want to read the follow up reports on the article that began this thread, but have not seen anything else posted yet.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: windswept] #211134
05/15/10 10:18 AM
05/15/10 10:18 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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Yes, there is no place for cats in the games right now, but there may be a place in the future, provided that sailing maintains the number of athletes and events it has now.

It is the perception that this might not be the case that propelled ISAF's olympic comission. Now this commission is stating that sailing (ISAF) is poorly aligned with IOC strategy and goals. Their draft conclusion is that changes are necessary.

IF (this is a big if) ISAF follows the commission's recommendations, Olympic sailing should use more accessible equipment and adopt media friendly format(s).

Note that the commission is not concerned about campaign costs because their focus is in having more countries sailing olympic classes, not on the cost to be competitive in the games.

The cheapest popular sailing equipment nowadays are the kites, windsurfers, optimists and lasers. The existing cat class that best fits in is the Hobie 16, with a price tag more than twice the most expensive of those four and requiring a crew of two, while the closest single handed cat would be the A Class.

Kites and windsurfers are faster, cheaper and more attractive to the media than the monohulls. Even more important, the kite clearly stands up compared to the mentioned cats.

It is for this reason that an inexpensive, single handed cat - probably with spi - would be our best bet IN THE SCENARIO WHERE ISAF FOLLOWS THEIR ADVICE.

No one really believes that ISAF will change substantially, though, so cats, however expensive, remain more palatable than kites, especially because multihullers have closer ties with the sailing establishment.

While the US beach cat community certainly does not agree, believe possible or feel comfortable with this approach, being seen as a more conservative option is our best shot in the short term to see a cat in the Olympics.

My conclusion is that the multihull lobby will have to maneuver very skillfully to enhance it's "relatively conservative vis-a-vis kites and windsurfers" image in the short term, while still retaining the "speed masters" image for the medium or long term. As a consequence, I would suggest that the T, F18 or A Class be promoted for the next games, and also to start work on a new, inexpensive, singlehanded and visually attractive cat that could line up with the kite, windsurfer and laser in the medium and long term.

This is just a view based on the facts I know, critics are welcome.


Luiz
Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: windswept] #211138
05/15/10 11:10 AM
05/15/10 11:10 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by windswept
I think the problem is specifically with ISAF. The IOC issued certian guidelines as to the growth and commitment that they wanted to see from each of the 28 sports that are represented in the Olympics. ISAF spent a great deal of time outlining their stategy for the future, and then went the opposite direction from their outline. we all know what, why and how this happened so no point in regurgitating this again. I do want to read the follow up reports on the article that began this thread, but have not seen anything else posted yet.


First, it's nice to have a civil exchange. Thanks to all of you.

With all respect, I disagree with you Tom. Imo, the problem lies with us, the catamaran sailors. We put up with poor representation and leadership. We need to find common ground and move forward without regard to IOC, ISAF or USS.

We have "battered wife" syndrome: this is the way it's always been so we don't expect any different. Just like the battered wife, the first time it happened it was "his" fault; thereafter it is the victim's fault.

We've never been welcome inside official sailing, the history goes all the way back to Hershoff and Amaryllis . If that culture was going to change, it would have changed by now.

Last edited by pgp; 05/15/10 11:12 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: Luiz] #211139
05/15/10 11:27 AM
05/15/10 11:27 AM

M
MarkMT
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MarkMT
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So a single handed cat with a spinnaker that's less expensive than an A cat? Hmmm. Ok let me think about that.

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: pgp] #211140
05/15/10 11:37 AM
05/15/10 11:37 AM

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MarkMT
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MarkMT
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M



Originally Posted by pgp
We need to find common ground and move forward without regard to IOC, ISAF or USS.

So what ever happened to the IMC?

Re: Multihull mistake forces ISAF Olympic Sailing overhaul [Re: ] #211142
05/15/10 12:13 PM
05/15/10 12:13 PM
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John Williams Offline
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Some members of the IMC were appointed to the ISAF Multihull Commission. Once that happened, the original purpose of having the IMC as an affiliate organization to ISAF were superseded by having a Commission that was appointed by the Executive. The IMC was put into a state of suspension while we try to work "from the inside." The IMC can be re-instated at any time it is needed.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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