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Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: waynemarlow] #211492
05/20/10 08:41 AM
05/20/10 08:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
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Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Dermot

My only point is that it is a lot easier to sit close behind a cat with a lower handicap number and win a race than it is to get past them to win the race. I have done it many times.


But then a 16ft cat with a smaller sail area should never be able to keep up with an 18ft cat with a larger sail area, particularly from behind where the effect of the larger sail area will make that job even harder. cool

I though that a Formula 16 was meant to be able to do that grin
I don't mean sitting in his wind shadow, just close enough to win on handicap.


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
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Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Dermot] #211495
05/20/10 09:15 AM
05/20/10 09:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Essex, UK
I fully agree with you Dermot, I too have done it many times! It's just so much easier when you don't have to actually pass to get the win.

Conversely, I've also had it happen to me the other way when on a faster boat and I just can't quite get past the slightly 'slower' boat perhaps because he's able to point higher and I can't quite get through to leeward - but then, I shouldn't have got myself there in the first place!!!!


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Jalani] #211503
05/20/10 10:50 AM
05/20/10 10:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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The first 3 F18 were very skilled sailors. Carolijn and Bundy finished mostly behind the first F18 according to the race report I just read but made it on handicap.

The challenging and fun thing about sailing an F16 in an open event is that you have to apply all your tactics to get in front of the F18 as well. I have finished well in open events with a Nacra 5.0 many times because you see all the errors, the best lines and don't have to bother on how to pass the boat in front of you because they should be faster most of the time. But there is no fun in that.

If a skilled sailor sails the F16 he is perfectly capable to keep up with the larger cats and to overtake them.


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
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Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Dermot] #211510
05/20/10 12:07 PM
05/20/10 12:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
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Wouter  Offline OP
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Quote

It is easier to beat someone on handicap, if you don't have to pass them on the water.



Well that is undeniably true.

However the same thing can also happen if they sail off the F16 rating, that one is also slightly slower then the F18 rating, although by less of a margin. So in that sense the situation is not that much different.


Ohh Dermot, just in case, my comments are not specific to you or anything. I respect you and your opinion and you have indeed always been a supporter of the F16 class. If I have insulted you then I appologize. My frustration with some people nitpicking may have allowed my comments to come out more harsh then I wanted.

Regards,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Wouter] #211524
05/20/10 01:49 PM
05/20/10 01:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 910
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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No problem Wouter, grin

It's great to see stars like Brouwer and Bundock promoting the class.

Last edited by Dermot; 05/20/10 01:51 PM.

Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Wouter] #211532
05/20/10 02:20 PM
05/20/10 02:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
I dont really understand what dermot is trying to get at.

If you apply your twisted logic to handicap racing then the small boats should always win the Sydney to Hobart or the Fastnet or Texel. Cause the small boats have it easier???? Just doesnt make any sense mate.

Ive raced quality F18s on a 104. And from my experince its really very hard. You have to be very close to the F18 in front of you to beat them in a 40-45 min race. Not easy to do when you spend most of the race sailing in gas. Your small sails disdvantage you even more if you do get clear air. Just makes caroline and bundys victory all the more impressive to me.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Aido] #211562
05/20/10 09:35 PM
05/20/10 09:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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If you are accepting that a Viper winning a regatta whilst using the 104 handicap is also a win as an F16, then it should be ok to sail the European champs on a viper using the 104 rating against the rest of the f16 boats?

Now I'm sure none of you stalwarts will agree with such a proposal but you must realize that you can't claim a victory for the boat whilst it's not even using the class designated handicap.


________________________
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Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: macca] #211566
05/20/10 10:12 PM
05/20/10 10:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
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Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
If there is a fleet of f16s to race then the f16 handicap is fine. If your in a mixed fleet that doesn't include a fleet of f16s you should take any break that you are entitled to.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Aido] #211567
05/20/10 10:18 PM
05/20/10 10:18 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
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Agreed, unless of course your goal was to promote the F16 as a class.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: MarkMT] #211580
05/21/10 05:36 AM
05/21/10 05:36 AM
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pgp Offline
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I'm all for throwing out the handicap in F18 v F16 racing.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: macca] #211633
05/21/10 01:37 PM
05/21/10 01:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Originally Posted by macca
If you are accepting that a Viper winning a regatta whilst using the 104 handicap is also a win as an F16, then it should be ok to sail the European champs on a viper using the 104 rating against the rest of the f16 boats?

Now I'm sure none of you stalwarts will agree with such a proposal but you must realize that you can't claim a victory for the boat whilst it's not even using the class designated handicap.


Macca,

before trying to apply any sort of logic to this; check out who started this thread.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: macca] #211639
05/21/10 03:06 PM
05/21/10 03:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
If you are accepting that a Viper winning a regatta whilst using the 104 handicap is also a win as an F16, then it should be ok to sail the European champs on a viper using the 104 rating against the rest of the f16 boats?


But one could also argue that if you are not prepared to play by the F16 rules then don't bother to turn up to a F16 organised event.

Equally if you are prepared to design and build a boat to the F16 box rule, advertise it as a F16 compliant boat on the manufacturers website, race it as a F16 in events such as the Singapore championships which you mentioned, sell it to customers as a F16 boat, then AHPC cannot complain if the F16 class extolls its winning capability on its forum.

In my view its time AHPC came off the fence and decided which class they are going to compete in, 104 or F16, it would certainly stop all this bickering that is going on.

Last edited by waynemarlow; 05/21/10 03:09 PM.
Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: waynemarlow] #211641
05/21/10 04:22 PM
05/21/10 04:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
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pgp Offline
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You're missing the point Wayne. The Viper is a fine boat and is built to the F16 formula. No matter what class it is sailed in it will attract a fair number of sailors. Many of those sailors will come from the F18 ranks.

That's why so many F18 insiders are trying desparately to discredit the class and keep us away from established venues. All this nonsense about weights and handicaps is a red herring. F18 sailors who get to know the F16 will be interested in it. Some will buy.

Those builders without a F16 in their product line will loose sales. Never doubt it.





Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: waynemarlow] #211649
05/21/10 06:06 PM
05/21/10 06:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
HJS Offline
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HJS  Offline
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Vic, Australia
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
In my view its time AHPC came off the fence and decided which class they are going to compete in, 104 or F16, it would certainly stop all this bickering that is going on.


Why should AHPC get off the fence????

When it comes to the crunch, they will only keep building boats IF they can sell them... (After all, they do need to pay their employees!!!)

Having a boat that can be marketed in multiple areas is a big plus.... just ask any marketing guru!!!

And let's look at Greg's history - He started his catamaran sailing on a mosquito catamaran - Wow... A 16ft cat that can be sailed as a Uni or Sloop. Then in 1988 designed the Taipan - Wow... another 16ft cat that can be sailed as a Uni or Sloop..... Then the F16 association came along.

Even though Greg has openly spoken against some of the F16 rules, it is currently the box rule that closest fits his thinking.... Hence, AHPC has "come to play"... but that does not mean that they have chosen NOT TO PLAY the other games!!

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: pgp] #211659
05/21/10 08:51 PM
05/21/10 08:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
You're missing the point Wayne. The Viper is a fine boat and is built to the F16 formula. No matter what class it is sailed in it will attract a fair number of sailors. Many of those sailors will come from the F18 ranks.

That's why so many F18 insiders are trying desparately to discredit the class and keep us away from established venues. All this nonsense about weights and handicaps is a red herring. F18 sailors who get to know the F16 will be interested in it. Some will buy.

Those builders without a F16 in their product line will loose sales. Never doubt it.



LMAO...

That means laughing my butt off.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: pgp] #211660
05/21/10 10:32 PM
05/21/10 10:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
<**** from both sides is just plain fackin' stoopid.

The only people that would come from an F18 have either lost their crews and need a singlehanded spin boat, or they were too light and/or not up to the physical demands of the larger boat in the first place. There is nothing outside of those two things that would pull anyone from a F18. The flip side is the F16 class is more likely to loose people to F18 because a bigger team didn't buy enough boat.

If I had steady crew, (or if anyone could stand being on a floating kitchen table with me for extended periods), I'd be on an F18.

I miss MX, things were settled over a few punches, much cleaner than this pissy, little girl with a skinned knee approach.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Karl_Brogger] #211664
05/22/10 04:31 AM
05/22/10 04:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Suite yourself, I'm game.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: HJS] #211668
05/22/10 04:47 AM
05/22/10 04:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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Posts: 893
Originally Posted by HJS

Why should AHPC get off the fence????


To me that is such an easy question to answer, as things are both 104 or F16 will simply " bobble along " as individual classes, put full support behind one or other and you have a large number of boats creating a class that looks established and numbers increasing. Like leemings, the masses tend to follow and a ground swell of activity begins, that is how all strong classes began.

Sorry but the F18 and F16 boats are so different and designed for completely different jockey weights that there will be little crossover of personel, what you do get from the two classes is two completely differnt groups of people able to compete on almost equal terms. Cool and can only be to the benefit of the sport.

AHPC should reign in the Aussie dogs who keep biting away at the heels of both classes by using personel friendships and contacts. AHPC would be surprised by how quickly things would become established to their favour if they could just keep building on the good press rather than the devisive press we see at the moment.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: waynemarlow] #211669
05/22/10 05:14 AM
05/22/10 05:14 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5
D
Dodsy Offline
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Dodsy  Offline
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Posts: 5
Never contributed to these threads but my colleagues who sail/own AHPC products would probably object to being described as "dogs"... I know I certainly do.

Stick to facts and evidence you can use to support you assertions.

In short... Keep it professional.

Re: 2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down ! [Re: Dodsy] #211670
05/22/10 05:20 AM
05/22/10 05:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Welcome Dodsy:

What do you think about dumping the handicap and racing F18/F16 straight up? I'm sure the F18 would have an advantage, but is it enough to worry about?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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