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Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? #211645
05/21/10 06:13 PM
05/21/10 06:13 PM
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Seriously, the Infusion is good but there are a lot of manufacturers in the F18 class. The new 20 is 27k and I can't imagine those will fly off the shelves even if it is an amazing boat. The Viper has proven that a little extra weight doesn't decrease it's ability to compete(though kind of annoying IMO). So why couldn't they put together a decent F16? There is a decent amount of competition among the manufacturers now in the F16 class and Nacra introducing an F16 (though likely not min weight) is only a matter of time...
Anyone think Nacra won't come out with an F16 in the next year or two?

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Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: PTP] #211647
05/21/10 06:39 PM
05/21/10 06:39 PM
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I am often wrong and seldom right but I can see NACRA giving birth to a new 16ft Cat. As for Hobie well we'll never know!!


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Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Mark P] #211650
05/21/10 07:31 PM
05/21/10 07:31 PM
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Nacra already has a F16 compliant boat. Not optimized for the rule, but fairly close in all regards but the (dare I say it?) weight. To be exact, almost compliant as the jib is 3.71m2 whereas the box rule calls for 3.7m2, but that's close enough for me.

It's called the Nacra 500 sport. And it's a fairly good boat. There is one at our club and I actually like the simplicity of it.

As it is I don't think it would win any serious F16 racing without daggerboards and loosing 20Kgs to get to at least the Viper weight (famous last words, I'm now fully expecting Macca to show up at the F16 Euro with a Nacra 500 and humiliate us all smile

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: pepin] #211672
05/22/10 06:28 AM
05/22/10 06:28 AM
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NQLD, Australia
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Two things
When I was shopping for a new boat a few months ago I asked NACRA AUS about a F16 and was told to come back in a year...

Also it must be cheap to follow the APHC route for the Viper, Scan an Infusion hull <$3000, scale it down (free), CNC cut female molds <$3000? Use Infusion beams and hardware. Read below about how APHC designed the Viper.

"We have followed traditional design procedures in the past but this time chose to engage Concentric Engineering Services and the CATIA design software. It wasn't that they were boating experts.

In fact, they work on anything from V8Supercars to jet aircraft to household products. It was the fact that they had a strong pedigree going back 20 or so years, they understood good design, they had a totally reliable 3D CAD package and could back it up with the inbuilt CAE properties", adds Greg.

Concentric Engineering Services also has a reverse engineering team with a portable tripod-mounted laser scanner.
Concentric Engineering Services started off the project by going to the AHPC workshop at Mulgrave, Victoria, and scanned an existing F-18 cat' to create the initial CAD data.
"The scanning showed straight away that the hull wasn't symmetrical", says Greg, " Concentric Engineering Services took this data and scaled it down to meet F-16 regulations. They were able to create a design that was perfectly symmetrical and accurate to within half a millimetre."

In CATIA, Greg was able to view how the Viper hull would eventually sit in the water and this contributed to the improved design.
"If I had to define this project in one word it would be 'accuracy'. All of a sudden we had the ability to make the Viper exact to very fine tolerances. This accuracy also meant that making parts was that much better. Our process improved 1,000%!"

Continues Greg, "The hulls and foils were developed with CATIA so that the plugs and moulds can be accurately CNC machined. This gives a production boat of unequalled quality and accuracy of shape. When we took the half-mould out we knew without a doubt that it would fit the other side."

"All eyes are clearly focused on the Viper F-16 as this model has the potential to match or even exceed the growth of its F-18 big brother. The Viper is the latest creation drawn on 30 years of racing and development experience at world class level and it won't disappoint. Reputation alone produced fully committed sales well before the prototypes were even sailed."
The Viper is expected to debut at the F-16 Championships in Holland in August 2007.
AHPC intends to take the Viper F-16 data and scale it up to make an even more successful 18-footer.
16/10/2007

Last edited by nacrajon; 05/22/10 06:29 AM. Reason: fixed mistake
Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Learning to Fly...] #211677
05/22/10 07:13 AM
05/22/10 07:13 AM
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Vic, Australia
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Originally Posted by nacrajon

Also it must be cheap to follow the APHC route for the Viper, Scan an Infusion hull <$3000, scale it down (free), CNC cut female molds <$3000?


I would be careful with quotes like this... People may take them as the gospel.

Cad Jockeys charge around $1000 per day.... Going from a scanned item as large as a hull to a workable drawing that can be "scaled down" would take about 5 days work.... and that is without throwing in any design modifications...

Also, what about the cost of the plug before you build the female mould.... there's another $5000+.

How about asking Brett what the budget was for the C2??? After all, that was just a "scaled up Viper".

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Learning to Fly...] #211679
05/22/10 07:24 AM
05/22/10 07:24 AM
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Nacra John,

I wish it was that quick, cheep and easy... In fact the cost of CAD modeling and then CNC milling are on a par with building and design plugs by hand.

Just so you know... scanned data is an extremely good reference but it is far from good enough to send into production. Not to mention the fact that the scanned data isn't even a surface that can be machined. Then there is the assumption that simply scaling a hull design is what you want to do, I'd hope the designer had some improvement they wanted to implement. It is not out of the question for an engineering company to charge out at $1000 a day to get that data into a CAD model that is correct and can be machined. Unless you have those skills in house the bill can rack up pretty quick.

CNC machining for a mold is about $2000 a square meter.. the maths on that equates to roughly 15k.

I guess the one upside from you comment is that $3000 to scan a hull is an over estimate... you could get it done for about 2k.

Like anything it is all about who you know and what mate you have in different industries.

On the topic, I would be extremely interested to see NACRA come out with an F16 compliant boat. I would be interested to see if they followed our design criteria and chose for the "beefy" option or the desired to implement other materials in a minimum weight option.

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: HJS] #211680
05/22/10 07:29 AM
05/22/10 07:29 AM
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NQLD, Australia
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I gave quotes like that as a 16 ft hull would take less than a day for scanning including set up. I have contracted far more intricate pieces of equipment (in the last 6 months) that were done in less than a day for less than $3000.

I put a ? mark on the CNC machining as I haven't had a mould machined, however I don't think I'm too far off the mark.

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Learning to Fly...] #211681
05/22/10 07:33 AM
05/22/10 07:33 AM
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Brett,

Thanks for the reply; I posted the above before I saw your post. I now sail an APHC product and I think it is a fantastic bit of kit.

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Learning to Fly...] #211696
05/22/10 04:53 PM
05/22/10 04:53 PM
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I sailed a AHPC product today for the first time. A Capricorn. I confirm that even this old non CNC machined boat is a nice piece of kit.

But it is soo heavy to pull up the beach smile

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: pepin] #211703
05/22/10 05:45 PM
05/22/10 05:45 PM
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If I were to go F18 then the C2 would be it. However, 400lbs is too heavy.
I wonder if Nacra would be able to build an F16 down to even the Viper's weight. smirk

edit: I actually looked up the weight of the F18 thinking that I should know for sure if I start saying the boat weighs 400lbs.. and it does 397. Ugh

Last edited by PTP; 05/22/10 05:49 PM.
Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: PTP] #211705
05/22/10 06:40 PM
05/22/10 06:40 PM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
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The proof is in the pudding!

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Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Mark P] #211724
05/23/10 05:23 AM
05/23/10 05:23 AM
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My guess is Nacra will have one out within 12 months.... ;-)


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Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: scooby_simon] #212025
05/27/10 07:26 AM
05/27/10 07:26 AM
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so is NACRA going to build a F16???????.

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: pepin] #213563
06/11/10 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pepin
Nacra already has a F16 compliant boat. Not optimized for the rule, but fairly close in all regards but the (dare I say it?) weight. To be exact, almost compliant as the jib is 3.71m2 whereas the box rule calls for 3.7m2, but that's close enough for me.

It's called the Nacra 500 sport. And it's a fairly good boat. There is one at our club and I actually like the simplicity of it....


Hi Pepin:

Anything new on this boat? How does it do in club races?

Last edited by pgp; 06/11/10 05:05 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: pgp] #213564
06/11/10 05:21 PM
06/11/10 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by pepin
Nacra already has a F16 compliant boat. Not optimized for the rule, but fairly close in all regards but the (dare I say it?) weight. To be exact, almost compliant as the jib is 3.71m2 whereas the box rule calls for 3.7m2, but that's close enough for me.

It's called the Nacra 500 sport. And it's a fairly good boat. There is one at our club and I actually like the simplicity of it....


Hi Pepin:

Anything new on this boat? How does it do in club races?


I've raced one and they are very quick and lovely to sail, but are quite simplistic with a loose footed main and no rotation control. Proper rocket downwind in a bit of breeze

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: pgp] #213576
06/12/10 01:52 AM
06/12/10 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by pepin
It's called the Nacra 500 sport. And it's a fairly good boat. There is one at our club and I actually like the simplicity of it....
Anything new on this boat? How does it do in club races?
No idea. The owner of the one at the club sails it only rarely and never raced it. I've heard recently that it is for sale.

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: pepin] #213577
06/12/10 02:32 AM
06/12/10 02:32 AM
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I have sailed a Nacra 5.0 12 years. It was a fun boat and at that time you sailed (depending on conditions) as fast as a Hobie 16. Now with the new rig (as I don't think anything else has changed) it easily sails faster then a Hobie 16.

But they are way our of league for the F16. They are nowhere near in performance, they don't have a lot of trim possibilities making the windrange to sail the boat in smaller and single handed definately more difficult to sail then the F16.
But cheaper then an F16 and a great boat to come into contact with catamaran and spinnaker sailing.

Gill


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Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Gilo] #213579
06/12/10 03:27 AM
06/12/10 03:27 AM
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I really like the Nacra 500 (always liked its predecessor too, nacra 5.0). With the new rig that Peter Vink made for it, it is a fun little boat and in my opinion the superior cat to the current youth cat (Sirena SL16).

I've said for many years that nacra should promote this boat hard and also campaign it as THE youth boat. Like Gil says, it is probably the best introduction to catamaran sailing.

Yet, all this still doesn't mean I'm ready to swith my F16 for it !

Wouter


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Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: Wouter] #213609
06/12/10 10:53 AM
06/12/10 10:53 AM
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We have replaced the two club-owned Hobie 16s with Nacra 500s at a community sailing club here in Toronto. They are great boats--fast and forgiving--for introducing people to catamaran sailing. Ours are in "Fun" trim, so no spinnakers, but they are slightly faster than Hobie 16s despite having only 190 sq ft of sail area.

In any case, our club members, who are mostly mono-hull dingy sailors, are far more interested in catamaran sailing now that we have the Nacra 500s instead of Hobie 16s. Aside from benefiting from a more current design and efficient hull shape, the biggest advantage is the lighter mast and the fact that the boat can be righted by one medium-sized person or two small people.

As for it working as an F16, it would not be competitive with Falcons, Blades and Vipers.

As for Nacra making an F16, I think it would be great, but since it would compete directly with their 17, I would be surprised if they went that way.

Ed
F18 Infusion 595
Toronto

Re: Is Nacra ever going to get into F16? [Re: catsailordude] #213614
06/12/10 12:10 PM
06/12/10 12:10 PM
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That's the 'problem' for both Hobie and Nacra, they both already offer a similar 2 up and 1 up platform.

To now spend time, money, etc. to develop and sell something (F16) that fits -both- would only hurt their sales of the other 2, I don't see them doing that to themselves.


Blade F16
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