Thank you, five minutes is up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Ok, someone fill me in.........

The viper is how heavy? and the class minimum is what?

No I did not forget to mention beams. If they were carbon also, retaining the same or more stiffness, then that would be an advantage. Extra volume is design choice because it performs better. If you were to build a Blade or Falcon with the same volume, then it would be heavier. Fact is the fat boy Viper is heavier than curent F16s and is competitive if not quicker.



The Taipan 4.9 is OD for starters, meaning it does not have to compete with market competition within the class. Secondly, the Taipan’s hull volume was too small, the platform not rigid enough to compete in the F16 class and the beam is also narrower then class allows. Increasing the beam length, diameter, reinforcing the beam seats for the extra load and twist for the kite all adds weight. Also remember the Taipan, whilst still a great boat is an old design now (about 22 + years old)



AHPC have just built a boat that sails closer to it’s rating (Viper rating) then other F16s to their rating, thus allowing it to compete against a class that should be quicker.



I would bet they would produce a 125kg boat in line with the Viper, compete head to head with them and develop their own class which would be very similar to the F16, be better marketed, more numerous and active on the race curcit. F18 and F18HT.



Kevlar would be another expensive option. Are the Ashby boats any cheaper then the carbon ones. Why have classes such as the F18 and tornado outlawed the use of Carbon and Kevlar in all but foils, tiller and tiller exentions and fittings. $$$$$$$$. But I am sure they are mistaking.



Brett Goodall has posted a great post summarizing why it costs more for a volume manufacturer. You can do a search or I will find it for you later. Research and development to produce a boat that performs as close as possible to it’s rating, plus supplying a quality product with warranty costs $$$$$.

Myself personnaly, I am currently a Tornado sailor (crewing for a friend) and will be purchasing a new boat soon. Could be an F16 (Viper would ne nice) or may be a taipan 4.9 which will be fitted with a kite for non Tiapan events.

A quote from the F16 forum that sums it up.

AH but the Viper is the first F16 / 104 boat to be regularly put through its paces by Olympic quality sailors. Like all rating systems only the best sailors should achieve the theoretical rated handicap.

On the club scene all the F16 designs are pretty even with no one design ahead of the other whether in one or two handed crew mode, even the oldest designs are still hanging in there with the winner all ways the best nut on the tiller.

Class weight is 107 kilos for 2 handed boats. Most new designs are at that or around that weight using mainly glass construction.

Anyway its been fun to be part of the F18 Forum for 5 minutes, interesting to read on this forum the the wildcat structural problems, I guess all classes whether light or heavy can be beset with problems of one sort or another.

Stiffness in structures can lead to more problems than solve, glider design ( who probably lead the world in composite construction ) have now gone away from very stiff structures, it was leading to structural failure at key points ( stress fractures ) and many pilots felt that they were taking such a physical battering, they couldn't cope physically over longer flights. Food for thought and I would guess the super stiff boats must be nearing this point. I'll start a thread over on the F16 forum to see what we all think of this very interesting subject.

All Aussie Blade,s are built to the minimum weight. They are all Glass/ Kevlar just like the Taipans.

So I don't see the problem. If these guys can do it why cant everyone else.

A few years ago when I had my F18 there were guy's in Europe that put forward a proposal to reduce the minimum weight of the F18 to 140kg.

Unfortunately for the class it was rejected.

Stephen,

You are so full of BS !




Last time I checked the Tornado's also have carbon masts.

Wouter

Note to everyone involved in this discussion.

We are poluting the F18 forum. This is not the place for this thread. So stop feeding the troll.

Wouter

How about an answer 1st Wouter?

You ar right, I slipped up on that and should have known, but it was a minor slip...... how about addressing the rest of my post before calling BS........ Or is it you that is full of BS.

In 2 up mode, the Viper's weight is 125kg whilst F16 class is 107kg. Note, the Taipan is 102kg without spinnaker gear, much smaller volume hulls and tiny beams.

All the other stuff is BS as well.

The Aussie Blade and Falcon hull have basically the same overall volume as the Viper. But more importantly they have as good as identical surface area which is the only meaningful measurement when deailing with hull weights. Additionally, I've upgraded a Taipan design to F16 specs myself (from the bottom up) and what you call tiny beams still result in platform stiffness comparable to a Nacra F18/Hobie Tiger. You make it sound like I'm (and the quoted F18 sailors) are sailing a noodle when that is simply not an accurate desciption of reality.

There is more but I'm not going to endless repeat all that stuff, because you have proven to simply ignore everything that is said and restate the same falsehoods over and over again; often only days later.

The end of the discussion is the fact that any US buyer can get himself a class minimum weight Falcon F16 when ordering the carbon mast upgrade; setting him back LESS then US$ 20K. A far cry from the unfounded 35K quotes propelled by some to scare the hens.

In your case (being in Australia) the counterproof is provided by the Aussie Blade F16 as made by http://www.formulacatamarans.com/

European customers have other options such as the Stealth F16 as well.


Therefore, your claims are based on speculation only whereas my statements are based on ACTUAL boats and quotes. If I didn't know any better I would think that you are one of those leaches also known as "stock market trader going short". You have already created a BP like oil spill on the F16 forum and now you are going full throttle at poisoning the F18 forum as well.

I hope you are really proud of yourself.

Wouter

That's absurd. who the hell is going to buy a boat that is 20% above the class minimum weight? The next manufacturer to enter the class is just going to produce a lighter boat.

That hasn't happened yet...

And,


If you'd look at some of the race results(discounting the experts racing), the boat weight doesn't matter.

With today's design's, the weight of the boat and crew doesn't matter as much as it used to such as the Hobie 16.

Mike

BTW, a lot of people have bought a boat that's 20% above the min weight.

And, there is a boat that's just as new as the Viper and it's a little lighter...AND it hasn't taken the class by storm on finishes as people would suggest.


Again,

It comes down to the person sailing the boat. To many people have it in their heads that a few kilo's makes a BIG difference...


Heck, go look at the Alter cup placement that just happened today.

Some of the lighter teams finished in the middle of the pack and the heavier teams finished higher up. So, what's the problem?


Mike

Actually the preceding four builders (Taipan, Stealth, US Blade, Aussie Blade) were producing lighter boats already. The Falcon launched 1 year after the Viper is also build lighter and the newly launched Aquaraptor is also build lighter.

The Viper, while being a very good boat performance wise, is actually the odd one out.

As a result some people (non F16 class members by the way) now want the F16 class to adjusted its rules to suit the Viper and basically outlaw the other 6 F16 designs. They do so by a slander campaign on the internet that has now unfortunately founds its way to this F18 forum. I have no idea why they feel that they can be successful at that. I am sorry that this spill-over to the F18 forum has occured.

Wouter

I fully agree with that statement.

We are seeing a rather flat dependence of performance upon overall weight. A few kg either way is simply too small to result in any measureable speed difference. Of course 10 times "a few kg" resulting in a difference of say 50 kg does eventually give rise to a measureable difference but the Taipan F16, Stealth F16, US Blade F16, Aussie Blade F16, Falcon F16 and Aquaraptor F16 are no where near that much apart. These boats are all enclosed in a range of different boat weights spanning only 5 kg and that is simply too small to matter.

I also think it to be really funny that sailors will think nothing of say 30 kg differences in crew weight and then fuzz about 3 to 5 kg differences in boat weight.

Wouter

Would you mind defining "they" for me?

I think every one needs to go sailing!

To be honest the F18 and the F16 are both cool boats, I think the viper is a really sick boat (some of the other f16's lack the sexy look a bit lol)

We are all cat sailors, we should all join toghether and not fight each other but beat the crap out those half boat sailors?

I like that IDEA!!!!