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Re: F16 alternative [Re: pgp] #211960
05/26/10 04:39 PM
05/26/10 04:39 PM
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Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Thank you, five minutes is up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F16 alternative [Re: rhodysail] #211961
05/26/10 05:26 PM
05/26/10 05:26 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: F16 alternative [Re: rhodysail] #211962
05/26/10 05:26 PM
05/26/10 05:26 PM
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Ok, someone fill me in.........

The viper is how heavy? and the class minimum is what?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: F16 alternative [Re: TEAMVMG] #211993
05/27/10 12:21 AM
05/27/10 12:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Viper could be lighter. Carbon mast to reduce weight aloft, carbon hulls and beams also to reduce weight.

You forgot to mention why the Viper is basically over weight, its not the mast nor the hulls which is the real concern. AHPC choose for commercial economy ( cost to the bottom line on the balance sheet )to use the beams rudders and all ancillaries from its bigger sister the F18 and by design choice, to have larger bouyancy ( big hulls )than the other F16's.


No I did not forget to mention beams. If they were carbon also, retaining the same or more stiffness, then that would be an advantage. Extra volume is design choice because it performs better. If you were to build a Blade or Falcon with the same volume, then it would be heavier. Fact is the fat boy Viper is heavier than curent F16s and is competitive if not quicker.

Originally Posted by mikeborden
So, it still comes down to weight?

Wasn't the Taipan down to min weight? If that's the case and the Taipan was so good, why didn't everyone build something just like the Taipan? For that matter, use all of the parts off of the Taipan like the beams and stuff, and then just make the Hulls with more volume? Why didn't that happen? Isn't the Taipan still being produced? So the beams should still be readily available, correct? So, other than the cost savings of using the F18 beams and parts, just use most of the parts of the Taipan. I would think AHPC would have thought of that.

Why didn't they do that then?


I'm not bashing the Taipan BTW or AHPC...

Just trying to have a good conversation...

Mike



The Taipan 4.9 is OD for starters, meaning it does not have to compete with market competition within the class. Secondly, the Taipan’s hull volume was too small, the platform not rigid enough to compete in the F16 class and the beam is also narrower then class allows. Increasing the beam length, diameter, reinforcing the beam seats for the extra load and twist for the kite all adds weight. Also remember the Taipan, whilst still a great boat is an old design now (about 22 + years old)

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Either by design or by commercial risk aversion ( using existing parts to limit development costs and thats exactly the right route to go in my opinion ) the Viper has fallen into a real sweet spot for its handicap, good and hope all the new owners will enjoy what is obviously a cool boat.


AHPC have just built a boat that sails closer to it’s rating (Viper rating) then other F16s to their rating, thus allowing it to compete against a class that should be quicker.

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
My guess is that should a new Nacra or Hobie suddenly appear thats 16ft long and down around the 120 kilos then AHPC would immediately issue upgraded components to lower the weight. Nothing wrong in that in my opinion just a MK2 version.


I would bet they would produce a 125kg boat in line with the Viper, compete head to head with them and develop their own class which would be very similar to the F16, be better marketed, more numerous and active on the race curcit. F18 and F18HT.

Originally Posted by mini
The new Ashby boat (as well as the Flyer II) do not even have carbon hulls, they are Kevlar.


Kevlar would be another expensive option. Are the Ashby boats any cheaper then the carbon ones. Why have classes such as the F18 and tornado outlawed the use of Carbon and Kevlar in all but foils, tiller and tiller exentions and fittings. $$$$$$$$. But I am sure they are mistaking.

Originally Posted by mini


A landed Ashby A in the US is right around 30K. You can buy a full carbon – under min weight - Falcon for quite a bit less (~5K)than that, and you have a lot more kit on the F16.


Brett Goodall has posted a great post summarizing why it costs more for a volume manufacturer. You can do a search or I will find it for you later. Research and development to produce a boat that performs as close as possible to it’s rating, plus supplying a quality product with warranty costs $$$$$.


Re: F16 alternative [Re: pgp] #211994
05/27/10 12:31 AM
05/27/10 12:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Well, we had some F18 sailors of note coming over to the F16 forum, giving vent to their views, I figured turn about was fair play.

But, the point has been made. Time to go home.


Myself personnaly, I am currently a Tornado sailor (crewing for a friend) and will be purchasing a new boat soon. Could be an F16 (Viper would ne nice) or may be a taipan 4.9 which will be fitted with a kite for non Tiapan events.

A quote from the F16 forum that sums it up.

Quote
Is absolute stiffness even desirable, or is some flexibility a good thing?

Like weight, I suspect it's importance is overstated.


Re: F16 alternative [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #211998
05/27/10 04:09 AM
05/27/10 04:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE

AHPC have just built a boat that sails closer to it’s rating (Viper rating) then other F16s to their rating, thus allowing it to compete against a class that should be quicker.


AH but the Viper is the first F16 / 104 boat to be regularly put through its paces by Olympic quality sailors. Like all rating systems only the best sailors should achieve the theoretical rated handicap.

On the club scene all the F16 designs are pretty even with no one design ahead of the other whether in one or two handed crew mode, even the oldest designs are still hanging in there with the winner all ways the best nut on the tiller.

Class weight is 107 kilos for 2 handed boats. Most new designs are at that or around that weight using mainly glass construction.

Anyway its been fun to be part of the F18 Forum for 5 minutes, interesting to read on this forum the the wildcat structural problems, I guess all classes whether light or heavy can be beset with problems of one sort or another.

Stiffness in structures can lead to more problems than solve, glider design ( who probably lead the world in composite construction ) have now gone away from very stiff structures, it was leading to structural failure at key points ( stress fractures ) and many pilots felt that they were taking such a physical battering, they couldn't cope physically over longer flights. Food for thought and I would guess the super stiff boats must be nearing this point. I'll start a thread over on the F16 forum to see what we all think of this very interesting subject.

Re: F16 alternative [Re: waynemarlow] #212009
05/27/10 05:07 AM
05/27/10 05:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 201
Adelaide South Australia
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ratherbsailing Offline
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Adelaide South Australia
All Aussie Blade,s are built to the minimum weight. They are all Glass/ Kevlar just like the Taipans.

So I don't see the problem. If these guys can do it why cant everyone else.

A few years ago when I had my F18 there were guy's in Europe that put forward a proposal to reduce the minimum weight of the F18 to 140kg.

Unfortunately for the class it was rejected.




Re: F16 alternative [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #212010
05/27/10 05:09 AM
05/27/10 05:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Stephen,

You are so full of BS !

Quote

Why have classes such as the F18 and tornado outlawed the use of Carbon and Kevlar in all but foils,



Last time I checked the Tornado's also have carbon masts.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: F16 alternative [Re: Wouter] #212011
05/27/10 05:12 AM
05/27/10 05:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Note to everyone involved in this discussion.

We are poluting the F18 forum. This is not the place for this thread. So stop feeding the troll.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/27/10 05:17 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: F16 alternative [Re: TEAMVMG] #212012
05/27/10 05:35 AM
05/27/10 05:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Ok, someone fill me in.........

The viper is how heavy? and the class minimum is what?



How about an answer 1st Wouter?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: F16 alternative [Re: Wouter] #212017
05/27/10 06:02 AM
05/27/10 06:02 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter

Stephen,

You are so full of BS !

Quote

Why have classes such as the F18 and tornado outlawed the use of Carbon and Kevlar in all but foils,



Last time I checked the Tornado's also have carbon masts.

Wouter


You ar right, I slipped up on that and should have known, but it was a minor slip...... how about addressing the rest of my post before calling BS........ Or is it you that is full of BS.

In 2 up mode, the Viper's weight is 125kg whilst F16 class is 107kg. Note, the Taipan is 102kg without spinnaker gear, much smaller volume hulls and tiny beams.


Re: F16 alternative [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #212041
05/27/10 09:12 AM
05/27/10 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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All the other stuff is BS as well.

The Aussie Blade and Falcon hull have basically the same overall volume as the Viper. But more importantly they have as good as identical surface area which is the only meaningful measurement when deailing with hull weights. Additionally, I've upgraded a Taipan design to F16 specs myself (from the bottom up) and what you call tiny beams still result in platform stiffness comparable to a Nacra F18/Hobie Tiger. You make it sound like I'm (and the quoted F18 sailors) are sailing a noodle when that is simply not an accurate desciption of reality.

There is more but I'm not going to endless repeat all that stuff, because you have proven to simply ignore everything that is said and restate the same falsehoods over and over again; often only days later.

The end of the discussion is the fact that any US buyer can get himself a class minimum weight Falcon F16 when ordering the carbon mast upgrade; setting him back LESS then US$ 20K. A far cry from the unfounded 35K quotes propelled by some to scare the hens.

In your case (being in Australia) the counterproof is provided by the Aussie Blade F16 as made by http://www.formulacatamarans.com/

European customers have other options such as the Stealth F16 as well.


Therefore, your claims are based on speculation only whereas my statements are based on ACTUAL boats and quotes. If I didn't know any better I would think that you are one of those leaches also known as "stock market trader going short". You have already created a BP like oil spill on the F16 forum and now you are going full throttle at poisoning the F18 forum as well.

I hope you are really proud of yourself.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/27/10 09:15 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: F16 alternative [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #212073
05/27/10 03:45 PM
05/27/10 03:45 PM
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE

In 2 up mode, the Viper's weight is 125kg whilst F16 class is 107kg.


That's absurd. who the hell is going to buy a boat that is 20% above the class minimum weight? The next manufacturer to enter the class is just going to produce a lighter boat.


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: F16 alternative [Re: TEAMVMG] #212076
05/27/10 04:03 PM
05/27/10 04:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
M
mikeborden Offline
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Memphis, TN
That hasn't happened yet...

And,


If you'd look at some of the race results(discounting the experts racing), the boat weight doesn't matter.

With today's design's, the weight of the boat and crew doesn't matter as much as it used to such as the Hobie 16.

Mike


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: F16 alternative [Re: mikeborden] #212077
05/27/10 04:11 PM
05/27/10 04:11 PM
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Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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BTW, a lot of people have bought a boat that's 20% above the min weight.

And, there is a boat that's just as new as the Viper and it's a little lighter...AND it hasn't taken the class by storm on finishes as people would suggest.


Again,

It comes down to the person sailing the boat. To many people have it in their heads that a few kilo's makes a BIG difference...


Heck, go look at the Alter cup placement that just happened today.

Some of the lighter teams finished in the middle of the pack and the heavier teams finished higher up. So, what's the problem?


Mike


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: F16 alternative [Re: TEAMVMG] #212111
05/28/10 04:34 AM
05/28/10 04:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

That's absurd. who the hell is going to buy a boat that is 20% above the class minimum weight? The next manufacturer to enter the class is just going to produce a lighter boat.




Actually the preceding four builders (Taipan, Stealth, US Blade, Aussie Blade) were producing lighter boats already. The Falcon launched 1 year after the Viper is also build lighter and the newly launched Aquaraptor is also build lighter.

The Viper, while being a very good boat performance wise, is actually the odd one out.

As a result some people (non F16 class members by the way) now want the F16 class to adjusted its rules to suit the Viper and basically outlaw the other 6 F16 designs. They do so by a slander campaign on the internet that has now unfortunately founds its way to this F18 forum. I have no idea why they feel that they can be successful at that. I am sorry that this spill-over to the F18 forum has occured.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/28/10 06:03 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: F16 alternative [Re: mikeborden] #212133
05/28/10 08:23 AM
05/28/10 08:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

It comes down to the person sailing the boat. To many people have it in their heads that a few kilo's makes a BIG difference...



I fully agree with that statement.

We are seeing a rather flat dependence of performance upon overall weight. A few kg either way is simply too small to result in any measureable speed difference. Of course 10 times "a few kg" resulting in a difference of say 50 kg does eventually give rise to a measureable difference but the Taipan F16, Stealth F16, US Blade F16, Aussie Blade F16, Falcon F16 and Aquaraptor F16 are no where near that much apart. These boats are all enclosed in a range of different boat weights spanning only 5 kg and that is simply too small to matter.

I also think it to be really funny that sailors will think nothing of say 30 kg differences in crew weight and then fuzz about 3 to 5 kg differences in boat weight.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/28/10 08:24 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: F16 alternative [Re: Wouter] #212160
05/28/10 11:55 AM
05/28/10 11:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Originally Posted by Wouter
they can be successful at that.

Wouter


Would you mind defining "they" for me?


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: F16 alternative [Re: Dazz] #212170
05/28/10 01:26 PM
05/28/10 01:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 126
Southampton UK
NacraKid Offline
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Southampton UK
I think every one needs to go sailing!

To be honest the F18 and the F16 are both cool boats, I think the viper is a really sick boat (some of the other f16's lack the sexy look a bit lol)

We are all cat sailors, we should all join toghether and not fight each other but beat the crap out those half boat sailors?

Re: F16 alternative [Re: NacraKid] #212175
05/28/10 01:40 PM
05/28/10 01:40 PM
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Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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I like that IDEA!!!! smile


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
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