Warranty of "light" boats is a potential business killer.

And that is why Hobie for example launches the 100kg iCat and why Nacra has done the A2 and A3 A-cats.

I think that if the above quote is true then they would never have launched either boats.

Wouter

Kirt, I agree with most of what you have to say, but differ on this :
"THIS is why IMO what we, as F16 sailors, need to do is really help our current manufacturers- Support them ALL!! A little "ribbing" between brands is great and "I like my boat better because...." is helpful but bashing/criticizing OUR manufacturers, for any reason, is playing right into the hands of our "competition" for new/current sailors. All this derision about weight, etc. is playing right into their hands too IMO. It projects a vision of a fractionated, derisive class."

Firstly, I`m NOT an F16 owner, but an interested observer, just so you can see where I`m coming from. (ie a potential customer, given the right circumstances)
I think that all the heated debate regarding class rules, min. weight etc, are as a direct result of players OUTSIDE of F16 wanting to enter the game, and play it by their own rules.
I also see all the heated discussions regarding weight etc as being a COHESIVE force in the class - I have not seen ONE F16 sailor/owner agreeing with Macca or TA, they have all been very forceful in their defense of the F16 class, it`s rules and it`s method of running the class. Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen, but they have a right to defend their stance, as they are the ones who have invested time, money and effort into the class, and who have the right to decide on it`s future growth potential (or lack thereof), as they bought into the concept of LIGHTWEIGHT 16ft racing boats. Changing that aspect of the class might detract from the attractiveness of the class and chase potential customers away.(Like me).
What I see is outsiders constantly making trouble, and F16 owners/ class members continually having to defend the class from these attacks.
Of course I agree that bashing any manufacturer in or out of the class does no-one any good. I do have strong reservations about whether the F16 class should WANT Hobie or Nacra to be involved in their class, I know very little about Nacra as an organisation, but I do know that Hobie has done catsailing and themselves no favour by alienating themselves from other sailors through their corporate attitude. I would hate it if that permeated the F16 class, and would see the entry of Hobie into the F16 class as a threat to it`s survival. If Macca`s opinions on these forums are anything to go by as a Nacra company representative, I believe the involvement of Nacra would only be worse.
If I`m mistaken, it would be a good idea if a Nacra company representative ask Macca to stop trying to enforce his belief system regarding what would be ""good" for F16 down our throats, or alternately inform the F16 class that Macca`s opinions do not reflect those of the Nacra company. If they were to do this, threads titled like this one would not be started. Macca has created a hatred of Nacra among F16 supporters which may not be well founded.
I also believe that the class rules will look after all involved - The Viper has fuller more bouyant hulls at the expense of weight. They COULD build the same boat lighter, at substantially increased cost, which is self-correcting as it would not sell as well. So a business decision has been forced by the class rules, one which Hobie and Nacra would also have to make in order to be competitive in the class (not only on the racecourse, but in volume of boats sold in order to be profitable. They must compete in PRICE with Stealth, Blade etc.) So I believe the F16 class rules allow for all schools of thought - lightweight lower volume hulls at min. weight, or fuller hulls at a slight weight penalty, evening out the playing field.
The problem with Formula classes is that some people want them to remain controlled development classes, while others would prefer them to migrate to being almost-one-design, similar to F18. I believe the F16 objectives when started were far more open, allowing similar boats with similar performance to race on a scratch basis. The Viper has at least shown that this is indeed possible, and are probably winning races more due to the highly skilled sailors and the refined rig, than any difference in hull shape, volume or stiffness of platforms contributes. If they traded boats with a mediocre sailor halfway through the regatta of a different make, they would probably still win, and the mediocre sailor would probably retain his position in the fleet. The boats have SIMILAR performance, enough so that weekend sailors needn`t worry about changing boats every season, or whenever the next best thing comes along.

PLANNING?
My theory on why weight is not as critical on a F16 as on a Tornado,
is my F16 appears to me to be fastest when planning.
I have sailed heavy a Tornado 35lb over minimum and it was a dog.
In medium wind & up planning may be the equalizer?

And I found it ironic that he who found it so important is sailing the second or third heaviest F18 in Racine. The boat weights are listed on the craw website.

A Class = too expensive
F18 = too heavy
F16 = too precious/argumentative
F14 = too few
F12 = too small

This is actually a brilliant example why he is so full of it.

Apparently a 20 foot with lifting foils and all carbon Nacra 20 sells like hot cakes and is alright, but an all-carbon F16 (with tighter limits to how it may be implemented) is a class killer according to him because it would be to expensive for most buyers.

Come to think of it. How would the current Nacra 20 owners regard this new all-carbon Nacra 20 ? Might they see it as a class killer ? (as in killing THEIR class)

If nacra can build and sell an A2/A3 A-cat, an All-Carbon Nacra 20 and a carbon masted F17 then they can certainly build a competitive (glass and alu) F16 if they want to. It is really not that hard when a poor conservative homebuilder like me can already get it down to 120 kg. The truth is that they just don't want to compete on a level playing field with other builders (or even amateur builders !).

In my opinion it is simply not the responsibility of a formula class to rewrite the rules to tilt the playing field more towards a particular schizophrenic boat builder. Some people apparently believe otherwise.

Now I don't piss on the boats he sails at every chance I get and I certainly hope that Macca has the same sense of well-manneredness.

Wouter

I don't think the M20 is supposed to be an F class is it?
Mike

I think it's supposed to be a one-design Texel killer..an open portsmouth rocket ship! If that is the case, it really doesn't matter.
Mike

Nacra and Hobie have a HISTORY of producing class killers of their OWN classes. This is just another iteration of building another boat that's "updated". Nacra has already given the middle finger to the 20 owners.
Mike

You can't deny it's a nice boat, and it's fast, but it probably won't sell well here in the US. Not because of people being hesitant to go to a newer 20, but because of price, 30,000??? is that correct?
Mike

I know it's different in Europe, but here in the US, F16's are getting more and more questions. There hasn't been a new Nacra 20 sold in the Panhandle of Florida in a couple years, which has a BIG Nacra 20 fleet. And most of the new boats have been F16's. And, most of the Nacra 20 owners are asking about F16's.

I can see where he is coming from, and his opinion is STRONG, and he is entitled to it, just like all of us. Rather he is right or wrong is yet to be seen cause our class is relatively new. Yes, we can use some rule refinements, but that will come with age.


Just my OPINION so don't shoot me!


Mike

The one up scene looks (from here) to be mostly a local club scene. That's a good question for the EU guys... What is the level of participation for one up spin sailors in the EU. I wonder how much of a market there is for a single handed spin cat racing program.

a little bird told me that the same design team who did the Nacra F20C is working on a F16...the word is that it will be as spectacular as the F20C

Wayne if you're lonely get a puppy!

Pete how do you constantly mis-interpret everything we all seem to say, where I come from its called not doing your homework properly and jumping to the wrong conclusions.