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Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: pgp] #213489
06/11/10 07:03 AM
06/11/10 07:03 AM
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phill Offline

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Pete,
I took the Razor for a test sail a week or two back.
Does everything as expected- you would think it was on rails upwind, light and flighty off the breese.
I'm very happy with it.

Regards,
Phill

Last edited by phill; 06/11/10 07:11 AM.

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Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #213537
06/11/10 12:06 PM
06/11/10 12:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve_Kwiksilver
Kirt, I agree with most of what you have to say, but differ on this :
"THIS is why IMO what we, as F16 sailors, need to do is really help our current manufacturers- Support them ALL!! A little "ribbing" between brands is great and "I like my boat better because...." is helpful but bashing/criticizing OUR manufacturers, for any reason, is playing right into the hands of our "competition" for new/current sailors. All this derision about weight, etc. is playing right into their hands too IMO. It projects a vision of a fractionated, derisive class."

Firstly, I`m NOT an F16 owner, but an interested observer, just so you can see where I`m coming from. (ie a potential customer, given the right circumstances)
I think that all the heated debate regarding class rules, min. weight etc, are as a direct result of players OUTSIDE of F16 wanting to enter the game, and play it by their own rules.
I also see all the heated discussions regarding weight etc as being a COHESIVE force in the class - I have not seen ONE F16 sailor/owner agreeing with Macca or TA, they have all been very forceful in their defense of the F16 class, it`s rules and it`s method of running the class. Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen, but they have a right to defend their stance, as they are the ones who have invested time, money and effort into the class, and who have the right to decide on it`s future growth potential (or lack thereof), as they bought into the concept of LIGHTWEIGHT 16ft racing boats. Changing that aspect of the class might detract from the attractiveness of the class and chase potential customers away.(Like me).
What I see is outsiders constantly making trouble, and F16 owners/ class members continually having to defend the class from these attacks.
Of course I agree that bashing any manufacturer in or out of the class does no-one any good. I do have strong reservations about whether the F16 class should WANT Hobie or Nacra to be involved in their class, I know very little about Nacra as an organisation, but I do know that Hobie has done catsailing and themselves no favour by alienating themselves from other sailors through their corporate attitude. I would hate it if that permeated the F16 class, and would see the entry of Hobie into the F16 class as a threat to it`s survival. If Macca`s opinions on these forums are anything to go by as a Nacra company representative, I believe the involvement of Nacra would only be worse.
If I`m mistaken, it would be a good idea if a Nacra company representative ask Macca to stop trying to enforce his belief system regarding what would be ""good" for F16 down our throats, or alternately inform the F16 class that Macca`s opinions do not reflect those of the Nacra company. If they were to do this, threads titled like this one would not be started. Macca has created a hatred of Nacra among F16 supporters which may not be well founded.
I also believe that the class rules will look after all involved - The Viper has fuller more bouyant hulls at the expense of weight. They COULD build the same boat lighter, at substantially increased cost, which is self-correcting as it would not sell as well. So a business decision has been forced by the class rules, one which Hobie and Nacra would also have to make in order to be competitive in the class (not only on the racecourse, but in volume of boats sold in order to be profitable. They must compete in PRICE with Stealth, Blade etc.) So I believe the F16 class rules allow for all schools of thought - lightweight lower volume hulls at min. weight, or fuller hulls at a slight weight penalty, evening out the playing field.
The problem with Formula classes is that some people want them to remain controlled development classes, while others would prefer them to migrate to being almost-one-design, similar to F18. I believe the F16 objectives when started were far more open, allowing similar boats with similar performance to race on a scratch basis. The Viper has at least shown that this is indeed possible, and are probably winning races more due to the highly skilled sailors and the refined rig, than any difference in hull shape, volume or stiffness of platforms contributes. If they traded boats with a mediocre sailor halfway through the regatta of a different make, they would probably still win, and the mediocre sailor would probably retain his position in the fleet. The boats have SIMILAR performance, enough so that weekend sailors needn`t worry about changing boats every season, or whenever the next best thing comes along.


SPOT ON.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: phill] #213545
06/11/10 02:36 PM
06/11/10 02:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
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Arkansas, USA
Arsailor Offline
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Phill-
Looks very nice! Apparently a fairly easy homebuild since it's mainly "flat" panels? Presume that was one of the design objectives, or?
Guess this might be easy to build ala the LCD "A" cat method of foam panels w/ CF on both sides. What's she weigh ;-) ?

Kirt


Kirt
Taipan 4.9 USA 159, Flyer USA 185
Will sail for food...
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: scooby_simon] #213546
06/11/10 02:40 PM
06/11/10 02:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 53
Arkansas, USA
Arsailor Offline
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Well, I guess I'll just agree that we disagree on what sort of view this type of discussion portrays to "outsiders' just jumping on this forum to see what the F16 class is all about. I'm not sure someone just jumping on would know who's an actual class member, a manufacturer, an interested potential buyer, an old member, etc. IMO most "newbies" entering this forum would presume that posters who seem to offer advice/opinions would be members/owners/manufacturers but perhaps I am being naive.

Kirt


Kirt
Taipan 4.9 USA 159, Flyer USA 185
Will sail for food...
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: Arsailor] #213559
06/11/10 04:15 PM
06/11/10 04:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 126
Southampton UK
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Another outsider view :P

Nacra could built a F16, but if they were to look on these forums they could be off put, most of the threads end up turing into fights bettween parties (parties that are not obviusly F16 or non F16 sailor) meaning that it gives the F16 class a look of friction between sailors and possibly a difficult class to deal with. Nacra could possibly go to AHPC and disscuss with them of setting up a new class of 120ish kg boats that they can both easily market and manufacture, and pgp's posts on the F18 forum will have not done the class any favours.

Before you start ripping me apart, if the UK youth catamran was still the Hobie 16 and not the Spitfire (which might fit in the rule actually) then I would seriuosly consider getting a F16 as I would have to get a 90kg crew to sail a F18!

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: NacraKid] #213561
06/11/10 04:25 PM
06/11/10 04:25 PM
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Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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Hopefully no one will rip you apart. But this particular thread needs to go away.

Personally, I'd welcome your comments but in a new thread please.

Also, one of the "old hands" has suggested that a boat type and sail number in a posters signature block would be nice.

Thanks, have a nice weekend.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: pgp] #213575
06/11/10 10:46 PM
06/11/10 10:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
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sail7seas Offline
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PLANNING?
My theory on why weight is not as critical on a F16 as on a Tornado,
is my F16 appears to me to be fastest when planning.
I have sailed heavy a Tornado 35lb over minimum and it was a dog.
In medium wind & up planning may be the equalizer?

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: sail7seas] #215563
07/08/10 01:12 PM
07/08/10 01:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Originally Posted by sail7seas
PLANNING?
My theory on why weight is not as critical on a F16 as on a Tornado,
is my F16 appears to me to be fastest when planning.
I have sailed heavy a Tornado 35lb over minimum and it was a dog.
In medium wind & up planning may be the equalizer?


If that's the Tornado I'm thinking of, it was a dog for quite a few other reasons as well smirk


Last edited by Tornado; 07/08/10 01:13 PM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: Tornado] #217472
08/12/10 11:40 PM
08/12/10 11:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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Not trying to stir the pot up again, but I thought this was the best objective answer to the original question...like they say a picture is worth a thousand words...Couldn't help but think of this thread when I saw a picture Jake posted of the inside of a NACRA 20.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=217414#Post217414

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: Seeker] #217477
08/13/10 06:24 AM
08/13/10 06:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 329
Chicago, Illinois USA
TEH Offline
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I just happened to sit at the same table with Macca last night at dinner in Racine. The F16 topic came up and what he said seemed simple enough to me.

He feels that the rule set in F16 needs refinement (I think you all know his argument about a class killer) before Nacra jumps in and invests. We can argue all day about whether a class killer could/would be developed, but that is how he felt they viewed it. Risk versus reward.

I asked about the new 20 and the risk/reward equation and he said they had so many European pre-orders that it was put into production. He gave a couple of people at the dinner table a "tour" of a 20 hull they had on display. Big pricetag but looks to be an awesome boat. Certainly light weight. I could lift the hull with one hand. He said anyone who has test sailed it has bought it.


Blade F16 USA 725
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: TEH] #217479
08/13/10 07:05 AM
08/13/10 07:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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This is actually a brilliant example why he is so full of it.

Apparently a 20 foot with lifting foils and all carbon Nacra 20 sells like hot cakes and is alright, but an all-carbon F16 (with tighter limits to how it may be implemented) is a class killer according to him because it would be to expensive for most buyers.

Come to think of it. How would the current Nacra 20 owners regard this new all-carbon Nacra 20 ? Might they see it as a class killer ? (as in killing THEIR class)

If nacra can build and sell an A2/A3 A-cat, an All-Carbon Nacra 20 and a carbon masted F17 then they can certainly build a competitive (glass and alu) F16 if they want to. It is really not that hard when a poor conservative homebuilder like me can already get it down to 120 kg. The truth is that they just don't want to compete on a level playing field with other builders (or even amateur builders !).

In my opinion it is simply not the responsibility of a formula class to rewrite the rules to tilt the playing field more towards a particular schizophrenic boat builder. Some people apparently believe otherwise.

Now I don't piss on the boats he sails at every chance I get and I certainly hope that Macca has the same sense of well-manneredness.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 08/13/10 07:11 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: TEH] #217481
08/13/10 07:21 AM
08/13/10 07:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
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Western Australia
Ok.. ban Nacra, Hobie and Macca from building F16s.. should settle the issue.. crazy

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: Stewart] #217482
08/13/10 07:47 AM
08/13/10 07:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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I don't think the M20 is supposed to be an F class is it?

I think it's supposed to be a one-design Texel killer..an open portsmouth rocket ship! If that is the case, it really doesn't matter. Nacra and Hobie have a HISTORY of producing class killers of their OWN classes. This is just another iteration of building another boat that's "updated". Nacra has already given the middle finger to the 20 owners. You can't deny it's a nice boat, and it's fast, but it probably won't sell well here in the US. Not because of people being hesitant to go to a newer 20, but because of price, 30,000??? is that correct?


I know it's different in Europe, but here in the US, F16's are getting more and more questions. There hasn't been a new Nacra 20 sold in the Panhandle of Florida in a couple years, which has a BIG Nacra 20 fleet. And most of the new boats have been F16's. And, most of the Nacra 20 owners are asking about F16's.

I can see where he is coming from, and his opinion is STRONG, and he is entitled to it, just like all of us. Rather he is right or wrong is yet to be seen cause our class is relatively new. Yes, we can use some rule refinements, but that will come with age.


Just my OPINION so don't shoot me! smile


Mike

Last edited by mikeborden; 08/13/10 07:47 AM.

Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: mikeborden] #217486
08/13/10 08:36 AM
08/13/10 08:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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mike.. water ballons at sunset!! If Im not there feel free to start without me!!! wink

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: mikeborden] #217487
08/13/10 08:41 AM
08/13/10 08:41 AM
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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And I found it ironic that he who found it so important is sailing the second or third heaviest F18 in Racine. The boat weights are listed on the craw website.

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: bobcat] #217489
08/13/10 10:23 AM
08/13/10 10:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
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mini Offline
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mini  Offline
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M

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by bobcat
And I found it ironic that he who found it so important is sailing the second or third heaviest F18 in Racine. The boat weights are listed on the craw website.


It is what happens when you do not own the boats you sail sometimes.

You would think the factory would try to supply the best equipment - but just goes to show in the end it is the driver and for all the blustering about weight , it really means squat in the results.

Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: mini] #217490
08/13/10 10:27 AM
08/13/10 10:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Bobocat, I took a look on the CRAW website but couldn't find the weights. Any chance of a link? Just interested in seeing the spread of F18 weights.


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: Jalani] #217493
08/13/10 10:43 AM
08/13/10 10:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
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Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: ACE11] #217496
08/13/10 11:19 AM
08/13/10 11:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Thailand
Well then piss off would be my advice..grin

Originally Posted by ACE11

A Class = too expensive
F18 = too heavy
F16 = too precious/argumentative
F14 = too few
F12 = too small


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: Why can't Nacra compete in F16 [Re: Wouter] #217501
08/13/10 12:09 PM
08/13/10 12:09 PM
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mini Offline
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Posts: 141
Originally Posted by Wouter
This is actually a brilliant example why he is so full of it.

Apparently a 20 foot with lifting foils and all carbon Nacra 20 sells like hot cakes and is alright, but an all-carbon F16 (with tighter limits to how it may be implemented) is a class killer according to him because it would be to expensive for most buyers.

Come to think of it. How would the current Nacra 20 owners regard this new all-carbon Nacra 20 ? Might they see it as a class killer ? (as in killing THEIR class)

If nacra can build and sell an A2/A3 A-cat, an All-Carbon Nacra 20 and a carbon masted F17 then they can certainly build a competitive (glass and alu) F16 if they want to. It is really not that hard when a poor conservative homebuilder like me can already get it down to 120 kg. The truth is that they just don't want to compete on a level playing field with other builders (or even amateur builders !).

In my opinion it is simply not the responsibility of a formula class to rewrite the rules to tilt the playing field more towards a particular schizophrenic boat builder. Some people apparently believe otherwise.

Now I don't piss on the boats he sails at every chance I get and I certainly hope that Macca has the same sense of well-manneredness.

Wouter


Nacra actually has a great opportunity to come in and build a min weight F16 and use their brand and marketing power. With a min weight boat they would totally trump the Viper and with their brand name should be able to overwhelm the small builders at the same time. They currently have their own issues and with having to switch to an Asian builder, there has to be some additional restrictions now to building “production quality” boats. Did you ask Macca where they build the new 20. I bet this has a bit to do with end cost too. I personally am not very excited about racing or especially owning a “performance” Daiwoo or Hyundai. I suppose though as only 1 of the Vipers sailed at the Euros was actually owned and not factory provided, if you are given a ride – you cannot complain.

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