| What are the F16 Classes THREATS #212735 06/06/10 01:20 AM 06/06/10 01:20 AM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 53 Arkansas, USA Arsailor OP
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Posts: 53 Arkansas, USA | Starting another off- 1) Fractionation of the class 2) Single manufacturer dominance
Kirt Taipan 4.9 USA 159, Flyer USA 185 Will sail for food...
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#212743 06/06/10 02:02 AM 06/06/10 02:02 AM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
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Posts: 571 Hamburg | Volume manufactures. If AHPC can work with Nacra and Hobie to produce and promote a 125kg equivalent to the F16, lets sat they MF16 (manufacturers F16), then you may well see the MF16 become the class that will reach International status, leaving the F16 class to remain a very small isolated class like the F18HT.
...which seems to work for the F18HT, at least in Europe. I don't thinkt that they (Hobie, Nacra) will have an chance to create another F16 class unless they come to the same weight and cost level. The threat is more, that they succeed in modifing the class rules to their need | | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#212751 06/06/10 03:52 AM 06/06/10 03:52 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | ... If AHPC can work with Nacra and Hobie to produce and promote a 125kg equivalent to the F16, lets sat they MF16 (manufacturers F16), then you may well see the MF16 become the class that will reach International status, leaving the F16 class to remain a very small isolated class like the F18HT
Last time I checked a 125 kg F16 is still an F16 ! With a Global challenge in NL in 2007, UK in 2008 and USA in 2009 and nationals in all these area's plus Australia and others I think the class is a little less "isolated" then you make it out to be. I haven't seen the big builders match something like that with any of their SMOD products lately (except the H16's or their F18 versions) Therefore I think this is a pretty empty threat and treat it accordingly. Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Wouter]
#212754 06/06/10 04:44 AM 06/06/10 04:44 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
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Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | Come on Wouter, there is a reason why it is called the Global Challenge and why it is not an International Class. There are not enough boats in enough countries to be an International class.
You will need to be honest with yourself if you want to grow the class.
2009 US Global Challenge 24 boats 4 non American boats, 2 of them Goodalls
2007 UK Global Challenge 13 Boats 1 non European boat
2008 NL Global Challenge 17 boats
Australian Championships, 8 boats
OK fleets, but still a lot to build on. In AUS, you do not see many F16s, let alone fleets or divisions at regattas. Sounds like it is a common scenario around the world.
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#212756 06/06/10 04:53 AM 06/06/10 04:53 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Come on Wouter, there is a reason why it is called the Global Challenge and why it is not an International Class. There are not enough boats in enough countries to be an International class.
The reason for this is alot less honourable I'm afraid. We are not willing the pay ISAF big bucks for something that is basically a meaningless membership, i.e. without any benefits to us as a class. If we wanted we could actually apply for international status, we do meet te criteria. Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Wouter]
#212758 06/06/10 05:25 AM 06/06/10 05:25 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Come on Wouter, there is a reason why it is called the Global Challenge and why it is not an International Class. There are not enough boats in enough countries to be an International class.
The reason for this is alot less honourable I'm afraid. We are not willing the pay ISAF big bucks for something that is basically a meaningless membership, i.e. without any benefits to us as a class. If we wanted we could actually apply for international status, we do meet te criteria. Wouter Try getting your facts right Wouter.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#212778 06/06/10 09:00 AM 06/06/10 09:00 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Come on Wouter, there is a reason why it is called the Global Challenge and why it is not an International Class. There are not enough boats in enough countries to be an International class.
You will need to be honest with yourself if you want to grow the class.
2009 US Global Challenge 24 boats 4 non American boats, 2 of them Goodalls
2007 UK Global Challenge 13 Boats 1 non European boat
2008 NL Global Challenge 17 boats
Australian Championships, 8 boats
OK fleets, but still a lot to build on. In AUS, you do not see many F16s, let alone fleets or divisions at regattas. Sounds like it is a common scenario around the world. In cases you have been living under a rock, "The World" is in a huge recession right now... How many years has the Tornado class been around? 30? More? And the F18 class? At least 15 I think. So the F16 class is still in it's childhood compared to them. If it were not for the two Alter Cup regattas being sailed on F16's (Blades and Vipers) here in the states, there wouldn't be half as many boats sold. Maybe you guys in "other parts of he World" should work on a similar system, where a single manufacturer supplies 10 brand new boats for a championship, then sells the boats afterwards. Seems to help jump start every class here in the States, be it Caps, Vipers, Blades, Infusions, what ever, it's a good shot in the arm. What makes any of you non-F16 guys think the F16's "goal" is to Rule the World anyway? The boat is what it is, as Wouter and Kirt told you in another post. It filled an unfilled void that existed at the time. I don't see it taking over the world. If it does, fine, but that's not a stated goal. There are plenty of other classes for that, right now it seems the F18 is the weapon of choice for world wide domination, Good on them. If I had regular crew, I'd probably get one. When my kids are gone, I'll probably get an A cat. So what? If the F16 fits your style, price range, fleets near you, today, get one. If you don't like the F16 rule set, move on. But to be an outsider and try to change the class' rules for...who? Hobie? Nacra? Most of the real trouble makers here don't even sail F16's. I guess it's not good enough, or "World Wide Enough" or Nacra enough, or Hobie enough for them, which is part of the draw for those of us who actually own and race them...Now, get over it, stay on your F18 or Tornado, or What have you, but don't come in here just because you like to stir up sh!t. I wish -some people- would stop trying to make all classes "the same". Variety is the spice of life. Not every crew will -fit- on every boat. There are many different active racing classes, from Hobie 16's up through I-20's, and depending on where you live, where the nearest fleet of...what ever... is, how much time and money you have to invest, etc., you should get a boat that fits you and go sail it, and get off our board. In this sh!tty world wide recession, we should all be grateful there are ANY new boats being sold!
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Timbo]
#212865 06/07/10 04:15 AM 06/07/10 04:15 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
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Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | In cases you have been living under a rock, "The World" is in a huge recession right now...
How many years has the Tornado class been around? 30? More? And the F18 class? At least 15 I think. So the F16 class is still in it's childhood compared to them. Keep your hat on there buddy. F16 are still in the early stages of development and growth, well there is no problem with that. Stating otherwise is incorrect and I pointed it out...... That is all. Read Wouter's claims above and you will see why I highlighted what I did. | | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#213097 06/08/10 11:58 AM 06/08/10 11:58 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | I actually don't believe we are in the earlier stages of development anymore.
More like the mid stages.
We are at the 3rd generation F16's right now and the factors with the big gains have now been exploited. Basically, only small refinements are now left.
Also remember that we started with a good head start. When the F18's were all still using teardrop shaped mast we were already using true wingshaped masts (now also the standard on modern F18's). I also seem to remember the F16's had carbon foils as standard before the F18 class went that way.
In rig development we are quite close to the F18's thanks to Glaser and Goodall.
Over the last 3 years we have made the next step in hullshapes with the Aussie Blade being the first shortly followed by the Viper and then last year by the Falcon. I haven't seen the Aquaraptor in the flesh yet but it is unthinkable that it uses a different setup in this respect. The designers has had to much exposure to the other designs to not have factored in the development embodied in them.
Stephen (Tornado-Alive) and others are spinning so fast that they mainly confuse themselves.
Truly, the F16 has passed beyond the "early stages" (Taipan, first version Stealth, Bimare Javelin)
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 06/08/10 11:59 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Wouter]
#213110 06/08/10 12:48 PM 06/08/10 12:48 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I was speaking in terms of class size, membership numbers, not boat development, which has been very fast considering the age of the class.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Timbo]
#213144 06/08/10 04:35 PM 06/08/10 04:35 PM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 126 Southampton UK NacraKid
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Posts: 126 Southampton UK | The best thing that I can see that has happened to the F16 class over the last few years is the Viper. An example, at EuroCat over the last few years there have been very few F16s, this year there was a fairly strong fleet of Vipers, which was properlly cool. For me looking from the outside (if i could afford a viper i would buy one, but ive got my Spitfire ) the F16 class all seems a bit foggy, for some one just trying to look at your website there are no dates on the calander and to find second hand boats you have to go on to the forums. For example is there any F16 Nationals champs in europe, or is the euros the only event? | | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: NacraKid]
#213186 06/08/10 10:34 PM 06/08/10 10:34 PM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 53 Arkansas, USA Arsailor OP
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Posts: 53 Arkansas, USA | I think you have hit it one the nose with our biggest current issue! AHPC and the Viper are currently our biggest "marketing" campaign as a class- if you want an example of where we should be right now then look at the F18 class site- I assure you people who are thinking about dropping 15-25K on a boat are.....
Kirt
Kirt Taipan 4.9 USA 159, Flyer USA 185 Will sail for food...
| | | Re: What are the F16 Classes THREATS
[Re: Arsailor]
#213204 06/09/10 07:06 AM 06/09/10 07:06 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | Kirt, I think you'd make a great referee. We haven't heard from you much in the past several months, maybe you could stick around and remind people to be civil.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | The three amigo's ride again ?
[Re: pgp]
#213208 06/09/10 07:46 AM 06/09/10 07:46 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Well, if only we could get Phill to pop back up overhere then the old trio is back at the forefront of the class !
This worked very well last time so ... ...
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 06/09/10 07:47 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
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