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Synthetic Trapeze Lines #216078
07/19/10 10:53 AM
07/19/10 10:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 129
Austin, TX
BoK Offline OP
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BoK  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Austin, TX
I have heard that the F18 class rules now allow the use of synthetic shrouds. Does anyone know if this rule change goes into effect now or in 2011?

Thanks!


Bo Kersey
Corsair 31-1D 276
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: BoK] #216079
07/19/10 11:15 AM
07/19/10 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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The F18 class rules will NOT allow synthetic shrouds. Synthetic trap lines have been proposed and will be voted on December 2010 (next World Council meeting)

Below is from the DRAFT form of the 2010 WC minutes held at Worlds.

5. SCR Class rules review (All).
Clarification to current class rules
Bow sprit bridles material : textile material with a minimum diameter of 3mmm is allowed.
The upper mast height point value (8980 mm) in F.3.2 class rules will be deleted. The maximum mast length remain 9100 mm from the beam.
Trapezes cable wires : a proposal including cable and textile with a minimum diameter of 2.5mm for trapeze will be presented to December 10 World Council.


The WC minutes are still in draft form and will be finalized next week. Once I have the final copy in hand I'll send them to the fleet and post it on the NAF18 website.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: David Ingram] #216090
07/19/10 01:13 PM
07/19/10 01:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 129
Austin, TX
BoK Offline OP
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BoK  Offline OP
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Right... I meant to say trap lines but you anticipated my question.

Hope they pass the synthetic trap line proposal. Sure will make rigging, storing & getting custom lengths done much cheaper and easier.


Thanks!


Bo Kersey
Corsair 31-1D 276
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: David Ingram] #216122
07/19/10 06:12 PM
07/19/10 06:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
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F18_VB Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram

5. SCR Class rules review (All).
Clarification to current class rules
Bow sprit bridles material : textile material with a minimum diameter of 3mmm is allowed.
The upper mast height point value (8980 mm) in F.3.2 class rules will be deleted. The maximum mast length remain 9100 mm from the beam.
Trapezes cable wires : a proposal including cable and textile with a minimum diameter of 2.5mm for trapeze will be presented to December 10 World Council.


I am all for textile trapezes. It would be so much easier to replace them or change the height.

I'd even ask to be able to use textiles for the rest of the standing rigging. It doesn't corrode, it's easy to replace, and it doesn't need expensive swaging. Wire, UHMW, and Vectran all cost about $.50 / foot.

If the standing rigging wasn't steel, boats could be made without mast corrosion caused by steel and aluminium touching in the presence of salt water.

I'd recommend limiting the type of rope to UHWM and vectran, because PBO and carbon fiber are too expensive and difficult to work with.

I would rather they did not set the minimum bow sprit bridle to 3mm. It will be hard to enforce because of the difficulty in measuring the thickness of a rope (they compress and are not perfectly smooth). It's not a clarification. It's a new rule. Plus mine are 2.5 mm...

Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: F18_VB] #216134
07/19/10 10:30 PM
07/19/10 10:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
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Funny this should come up now, I was going to replace my traplines this winter with dyneema. for club racing who cares, plus they are cheaper and last better.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: Dazz] #216159
07/20/10 08:35 AM
07/20/10 08:35 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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textile traps are the way to go, if only for safety. A textile trap can be cut by a simple knife (in fact such "cut yourself proof" knifes exist) in the case of an emergency... how many of us cary wire cutters?

Is there anything in the rules now saying you can't have a trivial length wire trap wire with the rest being textile? For example, a foot of wire coming off the mast then the rest done in textile?

Speaking of rule changes, anyone moving to allow GPS aided compasses and speed? (ala SpeedPuck)?

Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: maritimesailor] #216165
07/20/10 09:08 AM
07/20/10 09:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Clermont, FL, USA
There is nothing in the WC Meeting minutes referencing GPS aided compasses but the rumor is that it is in the works. I'm not a part of the technical committee (although I do know people) so I don't have the latest and greatest on this issue. If this item is in the works it will probably go up for a vote at the next WC meeting in December.

Now your question regarding wire traps and wire length minimums, no the current rule does not specfically call out trap wire length minimums but if you were called into the room I suspect you would get tossed because the intent of the rule is pretty clear (yes I know, that's easily argued). I also suspect that the class measurer would not find your 1 foot wire trap acceptable and would not sign off on your cert. Of course this is just my opinion. All this is moot anyway, textile traps will in all likelyhood pass easily in December.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: David Ingram] #216176
07/20/10 10:10 AM
07/20/10 10:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Hi folks -

Half the reason the synthetic trap lines will be allowed is because the wording of the rules to keep them wire is so tangled - a minimum length of wire was proposed as a rule clarification, but it spun up into something ridiculous in volume so quickly...

The other half is the safety issue. We don't talk about it much, but the drowning death of a young Tornado sailor still casts a pall over any conversation about trap wires.

The Technical Committee recommended to the World Council to drop wires - Greg Goodall is writing the proposal that will, as Dave noted, be voted upon in December. Expect passage as described above - wire or textile trapeze lines of 2.5mm minimum diameter.

I get to write the proposal to allow newer technology on F18s, including Velocitek-type devices like the SpeedPuk. There was significant support around the table since they are already proven to be valuable in training, replaying races, etc. I certainly don't mind hearing input on the proposal or wording for the rule. Expect passage of this rule as well in December.

F18 is seriously vibrant and moving forward. I got a real eye-opener in France.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: John Williams] #216184
07/20/10 11:05 AM
07/20/10 11:05 AM
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maritimesailor Offline
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John, glad to hear both the safety issue for textile trap wires as well as the "lets stay on the bleading edge" for GPS / Velocitek like gadgets.

On the safety, I have coached 29ers and 420s before and had to jump in the water to help a junior get off the trap, any "newer" style harness that has either the ball and socket or quick release function is okay, but when all else fails its nice to be able to cut the line with a knife, especially with specific "cut yourself proof" knifes available (I have one on my when sailing).

As for GPS, I would word it such that it allows only GPS assisted heading and speed, but specifically disallowing any fixed position referencing (i.e using the GPS to track mark locations).

Grey areas I would foresee:
- heading references (i.e you are being knocked or lifted, which a magnetic compas can already tell you, so maybe a null point)
- VMG (that is class call, I would disallow, as it leads to more advanced tech)
- Fixed positioning / mapping (tracking where marks are relative to you). No Velocitek product can do this (yet), but it is only a matter of time before you have products like Deckman in better form factors then they are now. (FYI Deckman is what "the big boats use" to tell them distance to line, distance to layline, angles between marks, etc after they have inputed them into their nav comp).

We sail with a speedpuck, favourite part of the day / training / is looking at everyone's max speed, adds to the excitement factor (could also be a side prize at regattas). I think they are fantastic and are a step towards making sailing more fun / approachable to sailors and non sailors alike.

Cheers,
-Patrick


Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: John Williams] #216193
07/20/10 01:03 PM
07/20/10 01:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
R
rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Hi folks -

Half the reason the synthetic trap lines will be allowed is because the wording of the rules to keep them wire is so tangled - a minimum length of wire was proposed as a rule clarification, but it spun up into something ridiculous in volume so quickly...

The other half is the safety issue. We don't talk about it much, but the drowning death of a young Tornado sailor still casts a pall over any conversation about trap wires.

The Technical Committee recommended to the World Council to drop wires - Greg Goodall is writing the proposal that will, as Dave noted, be voted upon in December. Expect passage as described above - wire or textile trapeze lines of 2.5mm minimum diameter.

I get to write the proposal to allow newer technology on F18s, including Velocitek-type devices like the SpeedPuk. There was significant support around the table since they are already proven to be valuable in training, replaying races, etc. I certainly don't mind hearing input on the proposal or wording for the rule. Expect passage of this rule as well in December.

F18 is seriously vibrant and moving forward. I got a real eye-opener in France.


John,

A few of us in the NE fleet have discussed synthetic lines. With that, is there any procedure that would enable international ad hoc mandate provision to allow synthetic dyneema/synthetic rope trap lines in advance of the official December ruling? It's a long time to wait for a common sense ruling that seems obvious for both safety and performance reasons.

Last edited by rexdenton; 07/20/10 01:06 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: maritimesailor] #216203
07/20/10 02:32 PM
07/20/10 02:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
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F18_VB Offline
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Originally Posted by maritimesailor
- Fixed positioning / mapping (tracking where marks are relative to you). No Velocitek product can do this (yet), but it is only a matter of time before you have products like Deckman in better form factors then they are now. (FYI Deckman is what "the big boats use" to tell them distance to line, distance to layline, angles between marks, etc after they have inputed them into their nav comp).

Velocitk and Rock Box can both do distance (and time) to the start line. Rock Box can at least do distance and heading to marks maybe to laylines as well.

Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: rexdenton] #216280
07/21/10 05:15 PM
07/21/10 05:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
Originally Posted by rexdenton
Originally Posted by John Williams
Hi folks -

Half the reason the synthetic trap lines will be allowed is because the wording of the rules to keep them wire is so tangled - a minimum length of wire was proposed as a rule clarification, but it spun up into something ridiculous in volume so quickly...

The other half is the safety issue. We don't talk about it much, but the drowning death of a young Tornado sailor still casts a pall over any conversation about trap wires.

The Technical Committee recommended to the World Council to drop wires - Greg Goodall is writing the proposal that will, as Dave noted, be voted upon in December. Expect passage as described above - wire or textile trapeze lines of 2.5mm minimum diameter.

I get to write the proposal to allow newer technology on F18s, including Velocitek-type devices like the SpeedPuk. There was significant support around the table since they are already proven to be valuable in training, replaying races, etc. I certainly don't mind hearing input on the proposal or wording for the rule. Expect passage of this rule as well in December.

F18 is seriously vibrant and moving forward. I got a real eye-opener in France.


John,

A few of us in the NE fleet have discussed synthetic lines. With that, is there any procedure that would enable international ad hoc mandate provision to allow synthetic dyneema/synthetic rope trap lines in advance of the official December ruling? It's a long time to wait for a common sense ruling that seems obvious for both safety and performance reasons.


Actually, the rule currently does not specify the length of the wire... So you could have a short wire section at the top (say 20cm) and then the rest could be in dyneema.


________________________
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Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: macca] #216283
07/21/10 06:21 PM
07/21/10 06:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Even though the rule does not specify length I doubt it would hold up in the room. It would be pretty clear you're trying to get around a rule.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: David Ingram] #216286
07/21/10 07:28 PM
07/21/10 07:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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is there an echo in the room????

still would be interesting for some one to do it and see the outcome. I guess it would depend on who is in the room at the time.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: Dazz] #216295
07/22/10 01:47 AM
07/22/10 01:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
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The "room" would not come into it. the ISAF version of the rules requires you to remove the "spirit" clause. So it comes down to the actual wording of the rule and as long as you can show that the trapeze wires are actually composed of wire at some point then you are in the clear.



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Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: macca] #216305
07/22/10 06:53 AM
07/22/10 06:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Kiel, Germany
I wonder how the height adjustment might be done, will there be a different system than the one we're using now?


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: Baltic] #217794
08/18/10 07:10 PM
08/18/10 07:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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Dazz  Offline
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I finished making mine last weekend, cost $12 per line and 30 mins worth of splicing and measuring.

the weight difference was surprising, now the handle, no miss ring, shackle and line weigh the same as just the wire did.

Baltic, you will use most of the gear you have now, just need a couple of extra shackles at the hounds to stop the chaffing.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: macca] #219962
09/20/10 07:48 PM
09/20/10 07:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
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Anacortes
Originally Posted by macca
The "room" would not come into it. the ISAF version of the rules requires you to remove the "spirit" clause. So it comes down to the actual wording of the rule and as long as you can show that the trapeze wires are actually composed of wire at some point then you are in the clear.



Would this not be the same for standing rigging? Rule says only that it must be composed of 1x19 or 1x7 wire min dia 3mm. Similar wording to the trap wires. Just asking.


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: Sloansailing] #220105
09/22/10 05:39 PM
09/22/10 05:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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So what are people using. I'm thinking 3mm Dynema but maybe 4mm would be a bit more conservative.

Re: Synthetic Trapeze Lines [Re: rhodysail] #220107
09/22/10 06:16 PM
09/22/10 06:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
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Anacortes
2.5mm minimum is plenty strong. 3mm if you cant find 2.5. I have 2.5mm Plasma (Spectra similar to DUX) available at 24 cents/foot.


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Rigging and Yacht Services
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