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Re: safety line [Re: pgp] #218612
08/30/10 07:20 PM
08/30/10 07:20 PM
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Ventucky Red Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
How about leading the safety line forward from the main blocks? I have some grommets in my tramp in line with the shrouds, more or less. Put a heavy line through the grommets, a good stout ss ring on that line and run the safety line through the ring, to the harness. Then, if you go overboard the safety line, hopefully won't destroy the steering link. If you experiment a little with the length of the safety line, you'd be bobbing along near the rudders and, hopefully, could bring the boat head to wind.



I had an incident where a crew member become separated from the boat when we tipped once that caused me to call a mayday as I had lost sight of him. The wind was blowing dogs off chains, with about a two foot sea, and my boat was making 5 kts while on its side. Unbeknown to me, the slug that was my crew that day could not swim or should I say made no effort to get back to the boat. Boy can those Coast Guard boats move!!!!!

From this incident I had put some thought into this as where we sail stuff can happen real quick even to an experienced sailor/good swimmer and I don't want to make any phone calls to the family.

That said, I did this with my 5.8 tramp, that is had some heavy duty webbing sewn into both sides with a loop to attach a Spinlock elastic safety tether. One was right in front of the main sheet traveler cleat and another just after the tramp bag for the crew. Never got the chance to test under real conditions but it worked OK when testing it while having a crew on board. And wasn't too bad when we tipped. When I added a spinnaker to the boat, it turned out to be a mess fouling line and creating some confusion.

The next thing I tried was a pad eye on the rear beam and the main beam that we could attach the teather to, that worked OK but was a pain sometimes I would forget to unhook when tacking or gybing.

I also tried putting a heavy duty D ring over the foot strap, tacking the strap to the tramp with heavy duty webbing at both ends, and attaching to that. But again one more thing to do when you're tacking. Nothing big when your pleasure sailing but when racing it was.




Last edited by Ventucky Red; 08/30/10 08:35 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: safety line [Re: Ventucky Red] #218624
08/31/10 05:50 AM
08/31/10 05:50 AM
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Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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Pleasure sailing is exactly the point. The goal is to be truly self rescuing and not be dependant on the Coast Guard or even the passing boat.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: safety line [Re: David Ingram] #218626
08/31/10 06:56 AM
08/31/10 06:56 AM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Aren't you the guy that leaves his PFD on the deck most of the time?


No sir, i wear my pfd almost all the time. there was a period when i didn't but that was a few years ago

Re: safety line [Re: ] #218657
08/31/10 01:43 PM
08/31/10 01:43 PM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Couple of quick points:

Pete, this is for your Blade, correct? I would think that if you fell of that boat, even with the spin up you could round or flip the boat by holding the mainsheet. It's a pretty light boat.

Also, as a singlehander cruising by yourself, I doubt you'd go out in conditions that would warrant this type of protection. I suspect then, that you are considering a system whereby if foul weather happens upon you that you could enable it with a minimum of fuss.

With regard to steering damage, has the crossbar broken because you hit it with the mainsheet, or hit it with yourself? Again, in bad conditions you could probably limp along without the crossbar (I believe you did so at Tradewinds last year?)

SO, if my understanding of your intention is correct, you really just want something in place to keep you from having to swim back to shore/mangroves/sharks. If that is correct, then being attached to the mainsheet/traveler arrangement seems most efficient in my view.

If I fell off a singlehander I'd love it to round up, stop, drop the sails, and find its way back to me (with a towel and rum&coke.... hey, it's my "ideal" system!), but I'd be happy if I was able to remain in proximity to the boat because even though I am a confident swimmer it is slow going with all the gear on.


Jay

Re: safety line [Re: waterbug_wpb] #218659
08/31/10 01:55 PM
08/31/10 01:55 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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Yes, it's for the Blade and just for use when gunkholing. Although I have some thoughts about "the Raid Ybel". But that's for another thread...

Each time I've put the Blade over, I've become separated. Usually by just a few inches, but twice, the situation became "interesting". You'd be surprised how fast a fat man can swim with the proper motivation.

Last edited by pgp; 08/31/10 01:57 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: safety line [Re: pgp] #218660
08/31/10 02:01 PM
08/31/10 02:01 PM
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Ventucky Red Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Yes, it's for the Blade and just for use when gunkholing. Although I have some thoughts about "the Raid Ybel". But that's for another thread...

Each time I've put the Blade over, I've become separated. Usually by just a few inches, but twice, the situation became "interesting". You'd be surprised how fast a fat man can swim with the proper motivation.


You would be surprised how fast a catamaran can move on it's side with the tramp beamed to the wind?





Re: safety line [Re: pgp] #218661
08/31/10 02:03 PM
08/31/10 02:03 PM
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What about a system that detached the crossbar from the rudders?, at least on one end... maybe not perfect, but would probably result in the boat sailing out of control / tipping over... Just a random crazy thought.

I would think a system that is an extension of the mainsheet / traveller would work best, sheeting in the system once you are say 10 or so feet back (maybe 20 to get out of wash) making the boat tip / keep you connected to the boat. I've done enough offshore stuff to know that the tether is a great idea, but you ALWAYS want a knife with you if using one just incase you need to cut it (most of the time the tether will try and drown you, especially if too short). Their are knifes specifically for this that are easy to use and made to avoid cutting yourself.

My 2 cents

Re: safety line [Re: maritimesailor] #218671
08/31/10 04:27 PM
08/31/10 04:27 PM
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Lake Norman. NC
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I also inadvertently tested the mainsheet tether, and don't recommend it.
Maiden voyage on my old Tornado, pre 2 trap days, blowing like stink. Hiking strap tie down broke. On my way past the mainsheet blocks while exiting on the leeward side I uncleated the main. Thought I was pretty smart about it, bobbed up and took a deep breath to yell at my crew who was happy out on the trap and unaware of my unplanned exit. Before I could shout, my legs were yanked out from under me. As luck would have it, the mainsheet that was wrapped around both my legs was sheeted in tight by my drag and the boat took off like a banshee. I don't know if you've ever tried to do a sit up while getting dragged through the water backwards, literally leaping out of the water like a crazed dolphin, but it ain't easy. Somehow I managed to get hold of the line and pull myself back to the boat. Until I was right there at the crossbar shouting at him, my crew had no idea of the show he missed. 30 years later I still have rope burn scars on my legs.

Maybe a tether attached to one end of the rear cross beam instead of the middle would do the trick. Or a tether to a snap shackle that would release the entire mainsheet system from the sail but still keep it and you connected to the traveler car would be even better.

Last edited by Matt_Z; 08/31/10 04:31 PM.
Re: safety line [Re: Matt_Z] #218682
08/31/10 09:38 PM
08/31/10 09:38 PM
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Ohio
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TeamTeets Offline
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I was thinking of the same tether for a single hander... Use one of the wichard snap shackles for life harnesses that will release under load. Attach your tether (red line) to the boom with a break-away line that will keep it from inadvertently releasing the mainsheet. Make it point forward so that whichever side you go off, the green line will break and spin the shackle that direction and release. Might need a bit more complex tie at the mainsheet... first to the release then a loop down to the top of the main blocks so it will release then hold you to the boat via the blocks.
[Linked Image]



Mike, Ohio
Former H16, H18, N20, N17, M4.3
Re: safety line [Re: Matt_Z] #218687
08/31/10 10:25 PM
08/31/10 10:25 PM
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Posts: 2,490
On the Water
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Originally Posted by Matt_Z
Or a tether to a snap shackle that would release the entire mainsheet system from the sail but still keep it and you connected to the traveler car would be even better.


Originally Posted by TeamTeets
I was thinking of the same tether for a single hander... Use one of the wichard snap shackles for life harnesses that will release under load. Attach your tether (red line) to the boom with a break-away line that will keep it from inadvertently releasing the mainsheet. Make it point forward so that whichever side you go off, the green line will break and spin the shackle that direction and release. Might need a bit more complex tie at the mainsheet... first to the release then a loop down to the top of the main blocks so it will release then hold you to the boat via the blocks.
[Linked Image]


I like this idea, and it sounds like it would work upwind, but you risk breaking the mast if you go MOB with the kite up.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: safety line [Re: P.M.] #218692
09/01/10 05:02 AM
09/01/10 05:02 AM
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Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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The problem with releasing the main like that is the chances of the boat rounding up is unlikely. More like the opposite which could lead to larger problems.


Have Fun
Re: safety line [Re: catman] #218699
09/01/10 07:40 AM
09/01/10 07:40 AM
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Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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If you go MOB with the kite up, you won't lose the mast as the main releases - the kite will have released too since it's only handheld and not cleated.


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: safety line [Re: Jalani] #218701
09/01/10 08:10 AM
09/01/10 08:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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I was thinking more of dragging by your feet single handed with the boat on a reach which most boats will do with the main unhooked.


Have Fun
Re: safety line [Re: catman] #218705
09/01/10 08:43 AM
09/01/10 08:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by catman
I was thinking more of dragging by your feet single handed with the boat on a reach which most boats will do with the main unhooked.


I agree with you Mike.

When we flipped in that race with you last winter, we got the boat back up quickly. However, the first time the jib was still cleated and she went over again. The second righting took a little longer and we were both quite exhausted. The big problem was then that we were too exhausted to get back on the boat. I was at the front beam and just couldn't get on. I had a brief scare when my trap hook got snagged on the dolphin striker rod. It took more energy to get loose from that.

My crew was inexperienced and fat, so not much help (I love you John). I knew I had to get back on so I could help him.

This is where things really went South. I decided to swim under the tramp figuring I could get on over the back beam easier. Only problem was the boat took off on a screaming reach and I couldn't get it to head up long enough to get on, remember I had broken one rudder at the start.

The only thing I could do was grab the mainsheet and flip the boat again.

Don't underestimate how quickly you can lose arm strength if such situations.

So back to the MOB situation...I think you must get the boat to head up and that will only happed if the main is tight. Releasing the main will only make the boat go faster, even if you are tethered to it.

Thoughout this whole ordeal, with both of us almost getting swept away from the boat several times, I'm surprised we never thought to tie ourselves to it. Once we were over for the last time and just trying to survive it would have been a good idea to be firmly attached with a tether.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: safety line [Re: catman] #218706
09/01/10 08:45 AM
09/01/10 08:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 215
Ohio
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TeamTeets Offline
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Ohio
I don't think this will work on a boat with a jib that is cleated. The boat would just foot off and drag you. On main alone, they tend to just buck along very slowly with the main unhooked. When I release the chute, it about half snuffs on its own. The windage may pull it downwind like a cleated jib.


Mike, Ohio
Former H16, H18, N20, N17, M4.3
Re: safety line [Re: TeamTeets] #218788
09/02/10 04:10 PM
09/02/10 04:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
Ask Chris Sawyer (many of you probably don't know him) how hard an I20 doing 20+ under spi hits you when you fall off. He torqued the traveler over backwards, jacked up the blocks and effed his hand up. Reason #1 to never use the plastic coated trap hoops.

Personally, I wouldn't sail solo in conditions where I didn't have some ability to self rescue. i.e. solo offshore or in cold/sever weather. Additionally, you would not see me put a tether on. I will however use a chicken line. I've sailed cats in some of the craziest sh*t ever, I have no faith in my ability to cut a tether while being dragged or that the boat will flip. Didn't US Sailing mandate the emergency release trap hooks b/c of sailors getting "tied" to their boats in bad places? Go drag behind a boat at 3-4-5 mph and see how that would feel to be tied by your waist. Sorry to sound so adament and set, but growing up the son of a boat dealer, we had all kinds of experiences. We'd drag behind mono's doing 2-3 kts and it was fun. Four kts gets tough and 5+ is hard if not dangerous. To not have the ability to let go could quickly be disasterous.

B/c of a moron skipper, I damn near got seperated going around Hatteras in the Worrell. There are risks both ways. I woudn't tether, sorry. Flame on.

Re: safety line [Re: Will_R] #218790
09/02/10 04:54 PM
09/02/10 04:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 17
Northeast
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erikcole Offline
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Northeast
Aren't some older boats set up that if you fall off they will head up wind and stop?

Re: safety line [Re: erikcole] #218824
09/03/10 09:57 AM
09/03/10 09:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
I agree that having the harness attach at the waist would make it difficult to recover if beign dragged.

I think Pete is working out a system for a boat much smaller than the 20, and I believe that he would be able to effectively stop his F16 if he were to fall off still connected to the maisheet/travler arrangement.

If the harness were designed in such a was as to drag you on your back facing forward (like a parachute riser), you'd (1) not get held under water (2) be able to utilize a quick release if necessary and (3) maneuver back to the craft using the lanyard.

Perhaps there is another way to disable the boat (preventing it from sailing off) if you fall? Maybe some sort of rip cord that unlocks/pops the rudders (like a kill switch on a powerboat)?

Could anyone show what happens to a uni/spin cat when the rudders are popped (1) upwind and (2) downwind.

For the purposes of this experiment, you'd have to let go of the control lines to simulate you falling off the boat. This would likely mean that the main/traveler remains sheeted, and the spin released.


Jay

Re: safety line [Re: waterbug_wpb] #218826
09/03/10 10:00 AM
09/03/10 10:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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I'll try it the next time I'm out.



Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: safety line [Re: waterbug_wpb] #218836
09/03/10 11:42 AM
09/03/10 11:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I agree that having the harness attach at the waist would make it difficult to recover if beign dragged.

I think Pete is working out a system for a boat much smaller than the 20, and I believe that he would be able to effectively stop his F16 if he were to fall off still connected to the maisheet/travler arrangement.

If the harness were designed in such a was as to drag you on your back facing forward (like a parachute riser), you'd (1) not get held under water (2) be able to utilize a quick release if necessary and (3) maneuver back to the craft using the lanyard.

Perhaps there is another way to disable the boat (preventing it from sailing off) if you fall? Maybe some sort of rip cord that unlocks/pops the rudders (like a kill switch on a powerboat)?

Could anyone show what happens to a uni/spin cat when the rudders are popped (1) upwind and (2) downwind.

For the purposes of this experiment, you'd have to let go of the control lines to simulate you falling off the boat. This would likely mean that the main/traveler remains sheeted, and the spin released.


This is also assuming that the line doesn't wrap around your neck - right? ;-)

We had a guy die that way last month on a lake near here...granted, he was intertubing behind a power boat...but still.


Jake Kohl
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