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Multihulls and the Olympics #220090
09/22/10 12:39 PM
09/22/10 12:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Hi Folks -

For those in the US who are still interested, I'd like to give a preview of one of the topics we're discussing at the US SAILING meeting next month in Phoenix. First, a brief summary:
  • The Council voted and passed a motion in March of 2007 that multihull sailing needed to be re-introduced to the Olympic Games, and that the Council's representatives should pursue that goal. This has been included as "old business" on all subsequent meeting agendas, and will remain so until resolution.
  • Volunteers on the Council have been working on this ever since, with emphasis on creating new relationships with US SAILING committees and councils that are stakeholders in the Games.
  • Like the tide, international support for various submissions from classes and MNAs to ISAF regarding equipment and events has ebbed and flowed.
  • The ISAF Olympic Commission published its report and recommendations for the Games in May. Many portions of the report support the inclusion of fast, exciting and athletic sailing like that found in multihull racing.
  • The submissions for the November ISAF Conference have been published. Of note, it has been proposed that action on Events and Equipment be moved up, such that a decision to include a multihull Event in the 2016 Games in Rio could come this year.
So what does it all mean, and where do we stand?

I know that many Catsailor readers feel passionately about this topic. Since 2007, interest in participating in US SAILING has (very understandably) waned among our community. The result has been an overall contraction among our population to concern ourselves with smaller, class-level issues, growth and management. The national issues have suffered somewhat during this period, and the burden was shouldered by a shrinking pool of volunteers. This is simply an observation - while I'm grateful for those that have continued to put time and effort into representing multihulls to US SAILING, I absolutely and completely empathize with anyone who either has no interest, time or ability to volunteer, or consciously chose to not volunteer in protest. If I had not been Chair of the Council when we lost the Olympic multihull, I'm pretty sure I would have quit, too. Regardless, the net result has been that our position is hopeful but precarious, and the outlook is good but vulnerable.

In the past, I have arranged for conference call access to US SAILING meetings. This is expensive ($100), and only a handful of representatives have participated. I did not reserve the conference call equipment or line for the meeting in Phoenix - even with a call arranged last year, we didn't have a quorum and couldn't conduct business for want of representatives. As word spreads about the multihull's prospects for Rio, I expect interest in what US SAILING is doing will again peak. I would encourage anyone who has an interest to peruse the submissions to ISAF, and contact your Area or Class Representative if you have something to say. You can also contact me directly, but I'd prefer that you work with your rep - they try hard to distill and represent class and regional positions to the Council.

The Council meetings are never closed - anyone who would like is encouraged to join us in Phoenix. I posted the meeting details in another thread.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #220091
09/22/10 01:00 PM
09/22/10 01:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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H17cat  Offline
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Issaquah, WA, USA
See Multihulls 2016 on facebook http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/multihull2016

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #220092
09/22/10 01:10 PM
09/22/10 01:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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dave mosley  Offline
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John,
Thanks!

If you read the laserforum.org stuff about the sail issues, this would be a good time for the cats to bump a single person dinghy. Laser Performance is folding, and so may the class if action doesnt happen quick. The Finn is a great alternative for a single person dinghy, the ILCA knows it, but is not scrambling to protect its future.
So multihulls need to act, quick!


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #220109
09/22/10 08:12 PM
09/22/10 08:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 53
Arkansas, USA
Arsailor Offline
journeyman
Arsailor  Offline
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Arkansas, USA
John-

Thanks for all you do for all of us! Would you mind posting a link to the details of the Council meeting? I have sat in on one before, many years ago when Gordon was Chair. I know I may end up with a "job" like I did last time but would like to come if possible.
Thanks!
Kirt


Kirt
Taipan 4.9 USA 159, Flyer USA 185
Will sail for food...
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Arsailor] #220112
09/22/10 08:42 PM
09/22/10 08:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Kirt, you'd be most welcome.

Here's the meeting website, and here's the draft MHC agenda.

And folks, please keep in mind that there are several people that work hard on this stuff - I'm just the one that posts here.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #220671
09/30/10 11:58 AM
09/30/10 11:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Branford, CT

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: rhodysail] #220692
09/30/10 04:18 PM
09/30/10 04:18 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



I'm sure I've read somewhere before that the IOC doesn't like "mixed events". Is this another case of ISAF ignoring what they have been asked to achieve?

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: ] #220708
10/01/10 10:11 AM
10/01/10 10:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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maritimesailor  Offline
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One design Tornado for men, F18 for women.
(or F18 for men, F16 for women)

Done and done

Next iteration, replace the F18 with a carbon F20 like the new nacra

(only real issue is does the F18 fleet want this? right low, lots of boat builders, lots of club sailing all the way to pro, olympics might kill that)

The the dev path for juniors is easy, start in Opti, instead of going Laser Radial or 420, go:
F16 (maybe club sails, smaller sail plan, see Viper Club for example)
F16 full sails
F18
Olympics

Last edited by maritimesailor; 10/01/10 10:12 AM.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: maritimesailor] #220710
10/01/10 10:45 AM
10/01/10 10:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
The International F18 Class has made a submission for the meeting in Athens; the Class supports a multihull event, but does not support the selection of any existing F18 design. The Council was unanimous on this wording, but it was contentious getting there - some wanted to make it crystal clear to the current builders that the Class feels strongly the selection of an F18 for the Games would be bad for the Class. Stronger wording was considered. Letters to the manufacturers were considered. In the end, a point of view that I agree with prevailed; the Class can't stop a builder from submitting their boat, and the relationship between the Class and the builders needs to remain positive and cooperative.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #220764
10/04/10 09:21 AM
10/04/10 09:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
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rexdenton Offline
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rexdenton  Offline
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Posts: 297
John,
The 'inside' persons representing the MH community at ISAF in Athens this go will need to be persuasive, firm, credible and convincing, and prepare Pederson appriopriate to the expectations of the IOC EC. Who are our inside champions? What is the plan? The IOC reaction to the Athens meeting and its conclusions/summary need to be prepared to react to a ten year equipment mandate from the IOC EC as the IOC EC may have reached the bitter end wrt equipment politics. An 'ISAF vision' is now required that is at once concise, powerful and exciting as there are other sports that desire a place at the Olympic table. Is there to be an ISAF white paper at some point? One logically thinks 'excitement, youth and future' includes Cats, 49ers, and largely accessible youth platforms such as the Laser. I want to see this in ISAF writing somewhere.

In the past, ISAF was not resolute in reacting to IOC EC suggestions and allowed the agenda to be manipulated. The IOC EC is now very aware of this behavior. Estoril was, for want of another word, a 'failure', and I actually feel that if ISAF repeats itself and ISAF does not deign to the terse language of the IOC 'suggestions', (and spin cats are not included the Olympics, in whatever form), Olympic sailing, collectively, will become a footnote of historical record.

Suggestion: The ISAF, including any MH champions, need to offer G. Pederson, and ultimately the IOC executive committee a very cohesive, fair and sustainable plan, absolutely free of the historical tactics of neer-do wells of the past. They also need to be transparent to all members of the sailing community. Finally, stating what the 'MH platform should not be' is far less powerful than advocating a precisely defined plan for what platform it 'should be'.

I really feel that the IOC EC is now at the edge of tanking sailing completely in 2016. The ISAF must present itself with an organized unified vision, required to sustain the sport. It's do or die this time, not only for the MH, but for Olympic sailing altogether, and there had better be a good vision moving forward.

Last edited by rexdenton; 10/04/10 09:26 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #220773
10/04/10 11:42 AM
10/04/10 11:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD
Take any boat building company in the world and give them a ten year exclusive contract to provide boats for the Olympics.... You will have a forceful plan that will be good for the winning company and the official that picks them. Will that plan be good for the sport? or Class?

That is the argument the F18' s are debating. Their answer is NO.. but there is not much we can do about it.

This is a cart before the horse problem though.
I don't see how you solve the gender equity issue. I have to think that mixed multihull or pairs multihull is a loser! ... ISAF continues to think that they kill two birds with this stone and pacify the IOC while keeping the "traditions" of sailing.

Just count the number of unique women competing in Hobie 16, F18's and Tornado Worlds over the last cycle. ... not even those on serious campaigning... just competing. Narrow the filter to those sailors under 30.... Narrow the pool even more to those that scored in the top 20 at their worlds....
If you can come up with 18 sailors... I will be amazed. The IOC is just not going to be impressed with this outcome.. They hate mixed sports teams... They want young athletic looking olympians.





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #220799
10/04/10 04:49 PM
10/04/10 04:49 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
We need to have a long term plan for sailing in general, when my kids took up sailing I bought them 2 x 420's and said if your good enough you can go to the Olympics, they had posters up etc. On Multihulls it's different, sailing bodies around the world have votes and lobby behind the scene's to get the event they percieve they will win a medal in. USA and NZ felt they didn't have medal potential that year so canned multis with a blindside to give them an edge on whatever got in. The USA has 3 votes plus an effective lobby which will see whatever the USA sailing body wants, in if they want it enough. I think multi's in or out comes down to USA's medal chances which is short term poor sportsmanship on behalf of the sailing bodies and a whole new system needs to be in place before kids have something to aim for. Give them certainty and watch the mixed crews appear

Last edited by JeffS; 10/04/10 04:50 PM.

Jeff Southall
Current boats
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Arrow 1576
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #220801
10/04/10 05:21 PM
10/04/10 05:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
They want young athletic looking olympians.


Yeah, just look at the Star guys.......lol


I'm boatless.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Karl_Brogger] #220805
10/04/10 06:03 PM
10/04/10 06:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Right... yes... look at the Star class... ISAF loves em... IOC takes a look at 55 + year old "athletes" and asks... Is it a sport???

Not to worry.... we then throw up for public enjoyment... Women's Match Racing.... ... again... Old salty ladies wiggling the stick for god and country.... (quick... name a sailor and ask... do you care to watch them compete in match racing?)

ISAF shot themselves in their brainless head the last time.... IOC will simply put sailing out of it's misery... and so... without IOC funding... ISAF will go away.

ISAF has one last shot at getting this right....

So assuming the best... Why does catamaran racing need an Olympic focus?

Fact of the matter... the America's Cup and various Ocean Races will dominate the public debate for the next several years. The notion that we required Olympics to challenge the young sailors is not so compelling anymore.

How much do we really need an Olympic spotlight?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #220811
10/04/10 06:29 PM
10/04/10 06:29 PM
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Devon Offline
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Devon  Offline
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We do need a olympic spotlight, the younger kids wanting to go to the olympics in a sailing boat cant pick a multihull, and thats a big loss to the development of multis. Look who is in charge of IOC, he sails a finn, he has decided not to compete for the AC, would seem he hates multihulls, there lies the problem, its a pity the WMC dosent go it alone, at the moment with the AC multihull interest they would romp it in, rather than allow the 10 olympic ISAF events to continue to paracite off them, and continue to take our money! There dosent appear to be any real choise of a multihull for the olympics, the T`s wont be allowed back in, F18`s dont want to destroy their class nor do the F16`s the A class is a 1 up, i really cant see any multi that can make the grave for the next olympics atm with what the ISAF are ruling, so perhaps its best to just let the olympic sailing die

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Devon] #220813
10/04/10 06:47 PM
10/04/10 06:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Here's something else I had not considered until this weekend. My young crew this past weekend (age 15) wants to sail at the colegiate level. He'll be a catamaran ace by then if he sticks with it, but guess what....no multihull racing at college. He'll have to "learn" to race Lasers and 420's sometime between now and then.

Now, I think college age kids are the perfect demographic for racing small, fast, catamarans. But why have the college sailing teams continued to use 1960's era designs, rather than keep up with technology? They are looking at the Olympic pipeline, which is choked up with 40+ year old technology.

Maybe rather than focus on getting a multihull back into the Olympics, we should be taking our "show" to the Orange Bowl regatta in Miami, when all the colleges are there for their big mid-winter regatta. I'll bet if we could get some of their top skippers out on fast spinnaker cats in a good breeze, they would think twice about getting back on a 420, Lark, or what ever other dinghy they are used to. Then, years from now, when these tech savy kids get to be adults and Yacht Club board members, their minds might be a bit more open to cats...


Blade F16
#777
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Devon] #220815
10/04/10 07:16 PM
10/04/10 07:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
continue to take our money!


What Money?

We have the ISAF structure ONLY because it gets most of it's funding from the IOC.

What money do you pay ISAF other then your building fee for your ISAF class boat.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #220834
10/05/10 06:13 AM
10/05/10 06:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
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Devon Offline
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Devon  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
http://www.sailing.org/contactisaf.php click this link and get it straight from the ducks bum, cant be any contreversy that way, u will be surprised!

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #220859
10/05/10 09:49 AM
10/05/10 09:49 AM
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Posts: 297
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rexdenton Offline
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Excerpted from ISAF submission 097-10, IOC recommends interesting changes supporting that a mixed gender multihull event for 2016.:

2-person Mixed Multi-hull Event

• The Commission supports the inclusion of multi-hull as Olympic Equipment as a Mixed Event. Mixed would reflect much of current global participation, and would provide a single-step pathway from the open multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds to the Olympics. The Commission recommends Equipment trials to select an inexpensive, modern, one-design multihull suitable for elite Mixed sailing that can be expected to become globally available in one to two years. The following paragraphs provide additional commentary on the recommendation for Mixed.
• Gender-based Olympic sailing Events have been introduced gradually, starting 1988, as sailing’s Open Events were being almost exclusively competed for by men due to the men’s strength-to-weight advantage. 2012 will be the first Olympics at which sailing has no Open
Events.
• The gender-based Events introduced were Men and Women, not Mixed. However outside Olympic sailing, a lot of 2-person sailing is Mixed – especially 2-person dinghies and 2-person multi-hull. The Olympic Commission believes that Mixed offers sailing some significant advantages and should be included in the Olympic programme for selected two 2-person Events:

a. it allows sailing to include more types of equipment in its 10 Events;
b. it better reflects sailing as it is practised globally in many parts of the world;
c. it highlights and promotes a key media-appealing differentiator of the sport;
d. it ensures not only gender equality on number of Events, but also number of athletes.

• Including Mixed Multi-hull is seen as the most advantageous way to re-introduce multi-hull into the Olympic Sailing Competition. It provides a natural pathway from the Open Multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds, and can be expected to increase the proportion of that fleet that sails Mixed at that event. Examining the other options:

a. no multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that 2-person multi-hull racing should be included
in the Olympic Sailing Competition. It is an inexpensive and exciting branch of the sport that is accessible to most nations and a relatively wide range of sailor physiques, and tests a particular sailing skill;

b. men-only multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes it would be wrong, as sailing seeks to move towards gender equality, to introduce a new Event as
men-only, especially when the event is Open at the ISAF Youth Worlds;

c. men and women multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that there is not currently sufficient Women-only multi-hull racing taking place globally to merit one of sailing’s 10 Olympic Events. It might also fail to meet the IOC requirement (practised in 35 countries on 3 continents). The Commission believes that new Olympic
Events should reflect sailing that is already an established part of the sport.

• The Commission does not support the view that Mixed is “not a discipline” or “not elite”. Sailing already has a Mixed Event (the 2-Person event in the Paralympics), and the IOC has added mixed tennis for 2012. Multi-hull is currently sailed Mixed by many sailors in many elite competitions – for instance the 2010 Tornado Class World Championships was won by a Mixed crew, as was the 2009 ISAF Youth Worlds multi-hull event. Furthermore, if multi-hull is only Mixed in the Olympics, this Mixed competition will become the premier, elite multi-hull dinghy event, and will provide additional value and differentiation to multi-hull sailing.

• In its 10th December 2009 press release on mixed tennis, the IOC stated: “The inclusion of tennis mixed doubles event ... will bring an added value to the Olympic programme by
providing another opportunity for men and women to compete together on the same field of play.” Mixed sailing will offer similar added value to the IOC.

• The Commission acknowledges that Mixed sailing is not currently common in some countries’ 2-person dinghy sailing – but Olympic decisions influence grass-roots sailing, and the Commission believes that this would change if Mixed is adopted. The Commission has not identified any nations that are today strong in multi-hull sailing that do not have Mixed sailing.

Mixed is also popular in other sports. For instance Badminton supports Mixed Doubles at all age levels, with Eastern Asia dominant. Badminton’s 2010 World Junior Championships had
Mixed Doubles entrants from every continent, and the number of entrants for Mixed Doubles was significantly more than for Boy’s or Girl’s Doubles.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #220862
10/05/10 10:16 AM
10/05/10 10:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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Stupid question, would this be a "mandatory mixed" or "can be mixed"? I really don't know for sure, but in mixed tennis (listed in the ISAF submission as an example) can the team be all guys even though the event is mixed? Wondering how they envision "mixed" in a sailing event, if it HAS to be mixed, their will be huge hunt for skilled female crews and skippers.... and a lot of established all male teams would have to break up... not saying this is good or bad, just wondering.

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