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Calling C2 owners #221834
10/18/10 04:58 AM
10/18/10 04:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline OP
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Baltic  Offline OP
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Kiel, Germany
What is your experience after one season on the C2: is this subject of beam slapping downwinds (like on the Capricorn) history?


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: Baltic] #221864
10/18/10 09:25 AM
10/18/10 09:25 AM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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I can count the number of times I had the back beam slap on the Capricorn over four years on two hands. I'm sure my Euro and Aussie friends sail in bigger seas than I do, but I just never saw the beam height as a real issue.

I felt one slap on the C2 at Worlds. Came close once in San Francisco, and once in Racine. None here at home or in Texas at the Alter Cup in July. Didn't get a full season, but close.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: John Williams] #221889
10/18/10 12:46 PM
10/18/10 12:46 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Pardon my ignorance, but just what is 'beam slapping'?


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: rexdenton] #221891
10/18/10 12:52 PM
10/18/10 12:52 PM
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France
pepin Offline
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France
Originally Posted by rexdenton
Pardon my ignorance, but just what is 'beam slapping'?
Back beam hitting the crest of the waves.

Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: pepin] #221911
10/18/10 02:09 PM
10/18/10 02:09 PM
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maritimesailor Offline
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C2 downwind is a dream, as crew I can say this is the easiest my life has ever been. The cut off back corner, the big Dakine foot strap, the higher back beam, the farther back front beam, the volume up front. This thing makes downwind in waves so much easier. Look at the first two days of the Canadian nationals. The weather was pretty much a F18s worst nightmare, big steep lake waves (boat swallowing waves) with high winds (25 knots ish). After the first downwind the first boats were usually C2s (with the very important exception of Misha in a Tiger and Tripp in an Infusion). Anyone who was there would have a hard time saying we weren't slippery down wind (okay, we aren't exactly light ;-).

I also recently just stepped into a Capricorn again after a season of C2 (an easy switch) and was reminded how much nicer the C2 responds when a puff pushes your leeward bow down, as crew I had to move much more to handle the puffs (on the wire, fore and aft) then I would in the C2. The Cap is an amazing boat, don't get me wrong, but when in "bad F18 conditions" the C2 simply takes you from living in full survival mode to having a blast. Also, the C2 learnt from the modifications all of us were doing to the deck layout / line rigging, so the boat is pretty close to perfect out of the box (always room for tweaking though). It's nice to see a manufacturer adapt / listen to their sailors in this regard.

My experience, just by results at regattas this season and by the feel I get on the boat, all boats have their weaknesses and strengths, but the C2 seems to be the 'easiest' boat to get up to close potential speed by the average sailor, and it keeps you in your comfort zone longer in the weather range then some of the other designs. You put a pro in any boat and they'll kick my but any day (seriously, Misha is one heck of a great sailor and such a great guy), but for the average sailor, I stand by my thoughts, that the C2 is just the nicest boat out their.

(Full disclosure, my skipper and I are AHPC dealers, but I try to stay fair in my assessment, we chose AHPC for a reason)

Last edited by maritimesailor; 10/18/10 02:09 PM. Reason: typo
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: maritimesailor] #221968
10/18/10 08:51 PM
10/18/10 08:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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Not to discredit this thread... but uhh please don't remind me about evil beam slap! I haven't felt it since I left the 20. Steeplechase day 1 was beamslap heaven every year.
Jdub... you had it happen in Racine? That really makes me feel good about you beating us smile
And Pat... to be fair I think in Canada it came down to the sailors... the infusion and the C2 seemed pretty equally matched in those waves. Olivier seemed to be doing okay with the Wildcat but we made some big gains on him when he would stuff and we wouldn't.
I was very impressed with the C2 though, that was the first time i'd seen an F18 push it as hard downwind in those waves as an infusion can... and that's saying alot. AND to be honest from racing against it I think it's a great all around platform, it seems to be fast in all conditions, where I feel the infusion suffers in small chop from the hull being so wide.

Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: John Williams] #221986
10/19/10 02:34 AM
10/19/10 02:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline OP
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Baltic  Offline OP
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Kiel, Germany
Originally Posted by John Williams
I can count the number of times I had the back beam slap on the Capricorn over four years on two hands.


I'm sailing in a bay of the most western/southern part of the Baltic Sea. If we have easterly and strong winds, the fetch is several 100 miles long resulting in steep, high waves. On a downwind leg of usual distance I have a slap 2 to 3 times. I wouldn't ask if this wasn't a subject ....


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: Baltic] #222000
10/19/10 07:10 AM
10/19/10 07:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 115
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F18arg Offline
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If you want to make a 'back beam slap' test, just come to Buenos Aires and sail-race in a South East 15-25 knots with short steep waves...

Original Capricorn could not perform to its full potential in these special local conditions due to a constant slap that induced a full stop and semi pitchs, that's why they modified the moulds and elevated the rear beam- Local made Capricorns are having a smooth ride with this mod.

Now we have Bundy's C2, owner report the easiest ride ever downwind on same conditions (he has two Infusion also to compare. I still didnīt sail it, but he is flying downwind)

Infusions are made for this river so no problem at all.

So to answer your question, the C2 has no problem with back beam slaping and was one the modifications addressed by Greg/Brett as the C2 rear beam is placed higher than the Cap-

Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: wildtsail] #222003
10/19/10 08:08 AM
10/19/10 08:08 AM
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maritimesailor Offline
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Originally Posted by wildtsail
Not to discredit this thread... but uhh please don't remind me about evil beam slap! I haven't felt it since I left the 20. Steeplechase day 1 was beamslap heaven every year.
Jdub... you had it happen in Racine? That really makes me feel good about you beating us smile
And Pat... to be fair I think in Canada it came down to the sailors... the infusion and the C2 seemed pretty equally matched in those waves. Olivier seemed to be doing okay with the Wildcat but we made some big gains on him when he would stuff and we wouldn't.
I was very impressed with the C2 though, that was the first time i'd seen an F18 push it as hard downwind in those waves as an infusion can... and that's saying alot. AND to be honest from racing against it I think it's a great all around platform, it seems to be fast in all conditions, where I feel the infusion suffers in small chop from the hull being so wide.


Yup, pretty much agree, I've always felt that the Infusion was the best boat in big seas / heavy stuff downwind until the C2 came along, now I think they are the same. That said, I've never sailed the infusion, just watched you ;-)

Small chop, interesting observation, I've always felt the Cap, and now the C2 deal well with small chop. The C2 seems easier to get on a plain upwind which also helps it kind of "ride over" the small stuff, even to weather. This is most likely due to the shape of the bottom of the hulls, pretty much flat from the back of the trunk to the stern. Still lots to play with and learn on the boat, plus you know, get better ourselves ;-)

Last edited by maritimesailor; 10/19/10 08:09 AM.
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: maritimesailor] #222006
10/19/10 08:27 AM
10/19/10 08:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 129
Austin, TX
BoK Offline
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Austin, TX
I sailed the Capricorn on the Great Texas 300 this year and I can tell you that it was a balancing act between beam slap and pitch poling the entire time. The problem was definitely fixed on the C2.


Bo Kersey
Corsair 31-1D 276
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: BoK] #222104
10/20/10 02:52 AM
10/20/10 02:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline OP
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Kiel, Germany
In this context: may I ask how you get along with the 2-line system (sepearate tack-line) of the spin? Apart from less clutter on the deck I'd assume that pulling just one line is faster than two ...

And thanks for the response to my initial question!


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: Baltic] #222121
10/20/10 07:53 AM
10/20/10 07:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
Speaking from sailing an infusion (not a C2)....We have a two line system for the kite. The tack line is run all the way out to Starboard hull. While approaching A mark on the starboard layline, crew can reach the tack line (from the wire) and get the tack out even before reaching A. One less thing to do during the rounding!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: ksurfer2] #222122
10/20/10 07:54 AM
10/20/10 07:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Speaking from sailing an infusion (not a C2)....We have a two line system for the kite. The tack line is run all the way out to Starboard hull. While approaching A mark on the starboard layline, crew can reach the tack line (from the wire) and get the tack out even before reaching A. One less thing to do during the rounding!


From there the tack line is run under the tramp, so no excess clutter on the tramp.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: Baltic] #222131
10/20/10 08:25 AM
10/20/10 08:25 AM
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maritimesailor Offline
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I've experimented with both a lot over the past few years, my thoughts:
One line system:
-Physically easier to hoist (2:1 advantage on the halyard)
-Less mental requirement (i.e don't need to remember the tack line)
-Douse always works (no tack line to forget about, cleat to not release, etc)
-Takes slightly longer to hoise (twice as much line to pull), for me, about 2-4 seconds longer (yes, I'm not the fastest hoister, I'm also not the slowest wink )

Two line system (what I have settled on)
- Can pull tack out ahead of time. Only time I don't is if their is no offset mark (which makes me mad at the PRO) AND the wind is heavy (25+) as the wind can take the kite out of the bag (happened once, not a huge deal).
- Faster hoist (direct 1:1, I can get it up theoretically twice as fast)
- Harder hoist (1:1, taking the direct load of the kite).
- Need to remember to pop the tack line on douse (C2 is rigged in a manner that this is supper easy now and 99.999999% reliable)

Basically I've gone to the two line system, I pull the tackline out from the wire before the bear down, let the downhaul off, let the rotation out, ease the jib sheet either all from the wire (if conditions warrant it and timing of the bear away) or from in the boat and hoist.

I also prefer standing up to hoist so have a higher placement of the cleat on the mast then what I've seen on the Infusion and some Capricorns. This lets me get the last bit of halyard as I "fall back" into place as the boat accelerates as well as keep my elbows out of my skippers face (he insists this is key for him to drive well, I disagree...)

Now my cards are all on the table wink

Originally Posted by Baltic
In this context: may I ask how you get along with the 2-line system (sepearate tack-line) of the spin? Apart from less clutter on the deck I'd assume that pulling just one line is faster than two ...

And thanks for the response to my initial question!

Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: maritimesailor] #222132
10/20/10 08:26 AM
10/20/10 08:26 AM
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Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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Our system for the tackline is also under the tramp. Small other bonus of the system, easier rigging, I never remember how that one line system works wink

Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: maritimesailor] #222142
10/20/10 09:06 AM
10/20/10 09:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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pepin  Offline
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Originally Posted by maritimesailor

One line system:
-Physically easier to hoist (2:1 advantage on the halyard)[...]
-Takes slightly longer to hoise (twice as much line to pull), for me, about 2-4 seconds longer (yes, I'm not the fastest hoister, I'm also not the slowest wink )

Two line system [...]
- Faster hoist (direct 1:1, I can get it up theoretically twice as fast)
- Harder hoist (1:1, taking the direct load of the kite).[...]

You can also have a 1:1 single line system, this negates some of the disadvantages you list in the one line system. It's my weapon of choice with the caveat that I don't have the same requirements as I sail mostly solo.

A disavantadge of the separate tack line you don't mention is the starboard rounding issue. Doing starboard rounding of marks with the tack line nicely routed to the wrong side is a challenge. Not an issue at the top level, where starboard rounding is rare unless you're doing match racing, but for club racing or long distance it's not that uncommon.

Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: pepin] #222148
10/20/10 09:52 AM
10/20/10 09:52 AM
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Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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Never thought of the starboard rounding issue (never had a stb rounding in an F18, but we only do up / down races). Might even be an issue if we all started jumping on the Match Racing scene (stb roundings are the norm). I could think of a couple ways to make it double sided though.

Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: maritimesailor] #222155
10/20/10 10:08 AM
10/20/10 10:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
We did starboard roundings at the Western Area F18 Champs in San Francisco. I did not like them, Sam-I-Am.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: maritimesailor] #222158
10/20/10 10:23 AM
10/20/10 10:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
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Anacortes
can you diagram the 2:1 single line setup? I have seen single line but not with a 2:1 halyard...


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: Calling C2 owners [Re: Sloansailing] #222221
10/20/10 07:29 PM
10/20/10 07:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Originally Posted by Sloansailing
can you diagram the 2:1 single line setup? I have seen single line but not with a 2:1 halyard...


It's in the manual, pg 45.


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