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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Jake] #222134
10/20/10 08:32 AM
10/20/10 08:32 AM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by Jake
Why does everyone see it as such a detriment to their class? I think it's clear that if they were to go with an F18 or an A-cat that it would be a SMOD from within that Formula rule that if it didn't evolve might become sort-of irrelevant, or at least semi-distant, to the class as hull shapes and foils evolve elsewhere.

With the Hobie 16 - I don't understand the hesitation...if the class was controlled within the existing (and very unchanging) ruleset as a SMOD - what's the drawback? More high-end competition?

Is it fear of an arms race? How many times have we heard threat of that issue that never came to fruition?

Is it a deep seated fear of fierce competition?

Is it a fear of more formality within the class?

What is it?


In the US it would be the intense fear of putting a spinnaker on the H16.

I'd like to see it on a formula boat, but not OD or SMOD. I'd like to see the development that comes out of it.


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Jake] #222137
10/20/10 08:34 AM
10/20/10 08:34 AM
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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Karl_Brogger] #222139
10/20/10 08:40 AM
10/20/10 08:40 AM
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This was one of the knocks against the Tornado in the last Olympic appearance of Multis, that they were NOT one design, specifically in the sail inventory. A lot of time and money was spent by teams developing sails. This led to some crazy out of the box thinking, but wasn't that good from a press perspective (lets not forget the US team's 'code zero' esq kite and how well that worked....).

The T class has worked hard to eliminate this stuff and is now a strict OD (AFAIK), with OD sails now as well. I think they have possitioned themselves well to be the next Olympic boat again.

Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)

(I would suspect in places like NA where their never was a huge Tornado fleet even with Olympic status teams would have an F18 here to get into bigger regattas, but maybe not)

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Jake] #222144
10/20/10 09:27 AM
10/20/10 09:27 AM
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Branford, CT
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Originally Posted by Jake
Why does everyone see it as such a detriment to their class? I think it's clear that if they were to go with an F18 or an A-cat that it would be a SMOD from within that Formula rule that if it didn't evolve might become sort-of irrelevant, or at least semi-distant, to the class as hull shapes and foils evolve elsewhere.

With the Hobie 16 - I don't understand the hesitation...if the class was controlled within the existing (and very unchanging) ruleset as a SMOD - what's the drawback? More high-end competition?

Is it fear of an arms race? How many times have we heard threat of that issue that never came to fruition?

Is it a deep seated fear of fierce competition?

Is it a fear of more formality within the class?

What is it?


It's the culture.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: rhodysail] #222145
10/20/10 09:29 AM
10/20/10 09:29 AM
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I'd do an Olympic "fantasy camp".


Pete Pollard
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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: maritimesailor] #222165
10/20/10 11:07 AM
10/20/10 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by maritimesailor
This was one of the knocks against the Tornado in the last Olympic appearance of Multis, that they were NOT one design, specifically in the sail inventory. A lot of time and money was spent by teams developing sails. This led to some crazy out of the box thinking, but wasn't that good from a press perspective (lets not forget the US team's 'code zero' esq kite and how well that worked....).

The T class has worked hard to eliminate this stuff and is now a strict OD (AFAIK), with OD sails now as well. I think they have possitioned themselves well to be the next Olympic boat again.

Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)

(I would suspect in places like NA where their never was a huge Tornado fleet even with Olympic status teams would have an F18 here to get into bigger regattas, but maybe not)


Sorry; do you mean Optimists for up to 15 year olds? I was breaking Toppers and lasers at that age and helming a Dart 18. Most kids in the UK leave the oppie fleet way before 15.

Last edited by scooby_simon; 10/20/10 11:09 AM.

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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: scooby_simon] #222168
10/20/10 11:36 AM
10/20/10 11:36 AM
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as I stated example ages, class rules are that you age out of the opti at 15. yes, some kids size out before that (from your comments, you are an example).

My experience coaching Optis State side is a lot of the top opti kids stay with the class until 14 or 15 (basically if they qualify for the Nat team or not), even if they could handle a laser 4.7, as the quality of the events / fleet warrants staying in the Opti. I would also argue that a kid who doesn't size out of an Opti implies a smaller person, and would not be an ideal candidate for Olympic Laser or Finn, but perhaps ideal for skipping a Multihull. Right now in the States and Canada (the only places I have experience with) those 'smaller' kids tend to have a hard time finding a home in sailing, usually going the route of skipping a 420 or a 29er (if they are lucky) and end up getting bored with sailing and leaving (hence, why I proposed the development track above, get them hooked with Multis). This is just my 2 cents, and I doubt it is even worth that much wink

This is neither here nor there though, and is a bit tangent to the discussion in this thread, so I'll leave at that smile

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: maritimesailor] #222172
10/20/10 11:45 AM
10/20/10 11:45 AM
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Screw the opti if you want to develope cat sailors Bravo,wave, 450 , dragoon ect.


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: maritimesailor] #222174
10/20/10 12:01 PM
10/20/10 12:01 PM
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France
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Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)
Opti until 15? My 15yo is 1.80m and hasn't been able to fit in an opti for years! He's been sailing cats for the last two years, rotomolded relatively slow ones (but with spi). The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK, all his regattas so far have been on RS Feva, a two man hiking asymmetric mono because there are no kids regatta on cats in the UK...

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: pepin] #222175
10/20/10 12:11 PM
10/20/10 12:11 PM
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Santa Cruz, CA
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Just think, if the boat chosen is a single manufacturer, one-design, the manufacturer will have to make sure that their boat is really 'one-design'.

That means every main, jib, spinnaker, rig, laminate schedule etc, etc down to the last ring ding will have to be exactly the same. Could be good for quality. As it sits right now, there's a lot of variation...everywhere.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: pepin] #222177
10/20/10 12:17 PM
10/20/10 12:17 PM
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see above... example ages, just listed class rules

Originally Posted by pepin
Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)
Opti until 15? My 15yo is 1.80m and hasn't been able to fit in an opti for years! He's been sailing cats for the last two years, rotomolded relatively slow ones (but with spi). The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK, all his regattas so far have been on RS Feva, a two man hiking asymmetric mono because there are no kids regatta on cats in the UK...

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: rhodysail] #222178
10/20/10 12:19 PM
10/20/10 12:19 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
it's the culture!


Exactly. Only one team wins your country's slot.... it's a zero sum game. Bad things happening to a countryman are good for you. Training with a US Team is bad for your chances... Consequently you train with an international team who faces similar circumstances. The culture is corrosively competitive and more like a pro sport... (without the big pay checks)

I bet if you asked every US Cat Class they uniformly will tell you... Oh... the class is very friendly.... People are very willing to share information and help you out.. So, If that's the case... Why is high ligting "sharing" and "Friendly" even an issue?.... answer... they are in stark contrast to Olympic Classes.

2) The Olympics dominates your schedule. Grade I regattas are locked in a regatta circuit. The only window for the US to host a grade I event is January in the Keys... or perhaps Dec. Boats have to be shipped to the next big event.

3) Last point... when you have your signature regatta... you expect your US Olympic sailors to participate.... But they are racing in the EU... and sorry... they are not going to make it.. Since people are closer to sheep then they admit and ... they want to follow the fleet leaders... Regattas crater when they fail to get critical mass of the top sailors.

All in all...It's better for a sailor to choose to opt into an Olympic flavor of your kind of sailing. Let the popular classes develop their own culture and traditions minus the attitudes needed to survive Olympics.

I have no idea why people are so content with the proposal of a mixed Catamaran (versus Open or M/F).

Quick Test... who won the US Open Mixed Doubles Tennis Tournament?




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: F-18 5150] #222179
10/20/10 12:20 PM
10/20/10 12:20 PM
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Good luck "screwing the opti", biggest junior fleet in the world, one of the biggest OD in the world, all the top worlds sailors started in them. They may not be the sexiest things out there (or at all), but I wouldn't try to replace the Opti, I would simply work with it.

besides, its hard to argue that kids who learn how to drive an in an opti don't know how to drive anything else... I digress.... beauty of sailing, you can find a boat / role for almost all personality and fitness / physical types, the key is finding it early enough that you don't leave the sport.

Now, back to Multihulls in the Olympics....

Originally Posted by hobie18rich
Screw the opti if you want to develope cat sailors Bravo,wave, 450 , dragoon ect.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: SurfCityRacing] #222184
10/20/10 12:53 PM
10/20/10 12:53 PM
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South Carolina
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Do we REALLY think that 10 or so (US based) teams that would put forth a serious Olympic campaign will have a negative affect on one of these classes? Really? I don't think that is sound thinking.


Jake Kohl
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: pepin] #222202
10/20/10 02:40 PM
10/20/10 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by pepin
The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK, all his regattas so far have been on RS Feva, a two man hiking asymmetric mono because there are no kids regatta on cats in the UK...


Blimey! where have you been?

There are quite a lot of people doing quite a lot for junior and youth cat sailing in the UK. It might mean a departure from what you want to be doing, but its worth the effort

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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: maritimesailor] #222215
10/20/10 03:29 PM
10/20/10 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by maritimesailor
as I stated example ages, class rules are that you age out of the opti at 15. yes, some kids size out before that (from your comments, you are an example).


Naa; I'm a microlight; I was about 60 kg until I was about 18! went up to about 65 / 68 while sailing the Hurri and T ; now about 75-80 (lard is good for ski racing!!!!).


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: TEAMVMG] #222218
10/20/10 05:55 PM
10/20/10 05:55 PM
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France
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Originally Posted by pepin
The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK
Blimey! where have you been?
Sorry, didn't want to offend anyone, I know about the cat youth squad, they train at Datchet quite often. I'm saying that the inter-club youth regattas are not on multi: You have toppers, vibes and lasers and not one cat anywhere. See the youth open last week at queen mary. Cats were not invited (but them, queen mary people are racists, they do not allow catamarans with spi...)

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: F-18 5150] #222226
10/20/10 11:17 PM
10/20/10 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hobie18rich
Screw the opti if you want to develope cat sailors Bravo,wave, 450 , dragoon ect.


As Russell Coutts says, "You don't have to be a good Opti sailor to be a good sailor."


Nacra 430 Rocket
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: ksurfer2] #222233
10/21/10 01:58 AM
10/21/10 01:58 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I find it interesting that everyone (here) wants multihulls back in the olympics......as long as it's not their class.


Not true (I sail a Tornado) grin


Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: maritimesailor] #222234
10/21/10 02:06 AM
10/21/10 02:06 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by maritimesailor
This was one of the knocks against the Tornado in the last Olympic appearance of Multis, that they were NOT one design, specifically in the sail inventory. A lot of time and money was spent by teams developing sails. This led to some crazy out of the box thinking, but wasn't that good from a press perspective (lets not forget the US team's 'code zero' esq kite and how well that worked....).


Unfortunatly it was the change in the Tornado Class rules for those Games only that generated the development of the Code Zero. The Tornado Class does not race in 5 knots or less however some feared that in Beijing we would not have seen any racing due to the history of light wind there. Sadly, Beijing ended up being the windiest Olympics the Games have seen for a very long time and the Code Zero did not make the impact it was intended to do, however made quiet a negative impact in the press.

So, moral to the story.... Don't F#$k with the class rules for such an event.



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