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Passing to windward #224148
11/15/10 12:19 AM
11/15/10 12:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline OP
veteran
Keith  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
So, I've been sailing just about my whole life, but I have to admit it has all been pretty much outside of the sailing establishment - meaning neither my family nor I have been members of a yacht club, I didn't grow up racing optis, and in fact I never raced before hooking up with the West River scene. So it is with a bit of bemusement in reading the Sailing Anarchy thread bashing up on Lee that it seems to be the biggest sin in the world to pass somebody to windward. I saw it mentioned in another thread that just featured a reunion of Newick boats where somebody makes that comment about the boat in the video clip. It seems that of all the kinds of things you could do to somebody and their family, passing them to windward is nothing short of cowardly, showboating, and being a "cat whacker". Now, I know that if you pass somebody to windward in a race you risk being driven up. I also know that passing somebody to leeward can be a good way to sit and not get by. I also know that heading somebody up in a different class or in handicap racing is a good way to lose ground to the boats that count.

When just out sailing on the Bay, do I risk offending the populace if I pass them to windward? How far must I be away from them to avoid the offense?

So, here's my question - is this really the biggest sin one can commit whilst competing (or sailing in general), or is this just another manifestation of the folks who think they are fast not having the ability to deal with somebody who is just sailing faster? Are people just being too sensitive or do I have some repenting to do? When the fastest boats are starting last in a many class fleet, do I need to take a course completely outside of everybody on the course to avoid offending somebody and being accused of showboating only to be subject to whatever on the water justice people feel is justified?

Do the PHRF A0 boats really make sure that they only pass the Alberg 30s that started before them to leeward?

Thoughts?

Here's mine - this is a bunch of crap, especially in mixed fleet racing. You will pass and get passed to windward. Deal with it. Head this person up only if it makes sense from a competition standpoint, not because you feel violated. But I could be wrong, and as a "cat whacker" I may have to learn some manners before I can wear a blue blazer.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Passing to windward [Re: Keith] #224159
11/15/10 02:58 AM
11/15/10 02:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
D
Devon Offline
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Devon  Offline
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Keith, If you are racing different classes on Yardstick then its open slather, however if you are racing different classes then it would be mean to pass 1 mono on windward and duck under another on leeward, they may have been duelling for hours and your movments may have just wrecked their race, may I suggest your club seperate the faster boats and start them 5 mins earlier and even give them a different course, this will help also, if you have the time and room then it is polite to not interfere with anothers match racing, for a mono hull to try to round you up in a yardstick event is ok but for them to do it when you are in a different catagerory then that is wrong of them, its much smarter for a slower class to just point down a little or change tack when a faster boat is approaching, my club races class events to minimise this happening and also we race all in yardstick events sometimes staggered times but its an all vers all race so anything goes..I always give way to the kids regardless and encourage them as i pass

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Keith] #224166
11/15/10 05:45 AM
11/15/10 05:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Baltic  Offline
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Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Politeness is one thing, rules another. There is no rule (I know of) which prohibits you from passing another boat windward. That's their risk if they participate in a race.
When you start, there will almost always boats windward from you. It would be nonesense if they wouldn't be allowed to pass you. And if so, when would the starting-phase end?


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Passing to windward [Re: Baltic] #224171
11/15/10 07:12 AM
11/15/10 07:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
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Devon Offline
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Devon  Offline
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Here`s a question, when passing another boat on windward, and the other boat is trapped out just how close can you go? I tried to go over a larger and faster cat on the start I had the speed he was just powering up but to get over him i knew i had to go real real close to take his wind but he trapped out and that stopped me from sliding up past him or my hull would had hit his head..so i had to point too high and i then lost speed, any thoughts.

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Devon] #224174
11/15/10 07:34 AM
11/15/10 07:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Devon
Here`s a question, when passing another boat on windward, and the other boat is trapped out just how close can you go? I tried to go over a larger and faster cat on the start I had the speed he was just powering up but to get over him i knew i had to go real real close to take his wind but he trapped out and that stopped me from sliding up past him or my hull would had hit his head..so i had to point too high and i then lost speed, any thoughts.


The sailors are part of the boat. You had to stay clear.



Jake Kohl
Re: Passing to windward [Re: Keith] #224181
11/15/10 08:21 AM
11/15/10 08:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
When out pleasure-sailing, and you have the ability to sail farther away, passing close can be considered rude. That is, it's discourteous to disrupt other people's enjoyment.

When racing, that's just part of the game - even in mixed fleets. I regularly sail two different boats in multi-class racing. One is the fastest, and highest pointing design, the other is the slowest and lowest. Starting strategies are completely different. In the first, I know I can overtake and roll any other boat. In the second, I know that I will get overtaken and rolled. In one, I'm looking for a passing lane, in the other, an escape route. That's just the way racing is.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Jake] #224184
11/15/10 08:36 AM
11/15/10 08:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
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Devon Offline
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Devon  Offline
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Posts: 110
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Devon
Here`s a question, when passing another boat on windward, and the other boat is trapped out just how close can you go? I tried to go over a larger and faster cat on the start I had the speed he was just powering up but to get over him i knew i had to go real real close to take his wind but he trapped out and that stopped me from sliding up past him or my hull would had hit his head..so i had to point too high and i then lost speed, any thoughts.


The sailors are part of the boat. You had to stay clear.


Yer i kinda figured that, inquiry > what happened to his head, it got in my way..lol.. new mast float..

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Keith] #224195
11/15/10 10:21 AM
11/15/10 10:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by Keith
You will pass and get passed to windward. Deal with it. But I could be wrong, and as a "cat whacker" I may have to learn some manners before I can wear a blue blazer.


My dad always stressed sailing ethics as much or more than the written rule.

In the last century (20th) it was certainly considered rude to pass a boat to windward if they were not in your class or race. A lot of those type of ethics have gone away both in sailing and in society. You can say that the bluebloods are full of crap, but for the most part, that is just the way they were brought up.

Right or wrong?...you can judge.





Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Passing to windward [Re: Mugrace72] #224196
11/15/10 10:22 AM
11/15/10 10:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
+1


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Passing to windward [Re: Mugrace72] #224216
11/15/10 01:55 PM
11/15/10 01:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
enthusiast
Don_Atchley  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
+1
How better to show off your superiority, than to pass below.
Being courteous whilst blasting through their wind shadow is a true win-win.


Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: Passing to windward [Re: Don_Atchley] #224230
11/15/10 05:21 PM
11/15/10 05:21 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 131
Southern Ontario
fredsmith Offline
member
fredsmith  Offline
member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 131
Southern Ontario
Things I have learned when sailing in beer can races with
monos.
1. Don't assume they know the rules.
2. They have no idea of the speed differentail between a cat
and a leadmine
3. Port/Starboard encounters, your on starboard, take
their sterns or tack away.They can not react fast enough
or see No.1
4. If overtaking a mono stay away from their wind shadow,
tack away.
Fred

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Keith] #224232
11/15/10 05:36 PM
11/15/10 05:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Keith
So, I've been sailing just about my whole life, but I have to admit it has all been pretty much outside of the sailing establishment - meaning neither my family nor I have been members of a yacht club, I didn't grow up racing optis, and in fact I never raced before hooking up with the West River scene. So it is with a bit of bemusement in reading the Sailing Anarchy thread bashing up on Lee that it seems to be the biggest sin in the world to pass somebody to windward. I saw it mentioned in another thread that just featured a reunion of Newick boats where somebody makes that comment about the boat in the video clip. It seems that of all the kinds of things you could do to somebody and their family, passing them to windward is nothing short of cowardly, showboating, and being a "cat whacker". Now, I know that if you pass somebody to windward in a race you risk being driven up. I also know that passing somebody to leeward can be a good way to sit and not get by. I also know that heading somebody up in a different class or in handicap racing is a good way to lose ground to the boats that count.

When just out sailing on the Bay, do I risk offending the populace if I pass them to windward? How far must I be away from them to avoid the offense?

So, here's my question - is this really the biggest sin one can commit whilst competing (or sailing in general), or is this just another manifestation of the folks who think they are fast not having the ability to deal with somebody who is just sailing faster? Are people just being too sensitive or do I have some repenting to do? When the fastest boats are starting last in a many class fleet, do I need to take a course completely outside of everybody on the course to avoid offending somebody and being accused of showboating only to be subject to whatever on the water justice people feel is justified?

Do the PHRF A0 boats really make sure that they only pass the Alberg 30s that started before them to leeward?

Thoughts?

Here's mine - this is a bunch of crap, especially in mixed fleet racing. You will pass and get passed to windward. Deal with it. Head this person up only if it makes sense from a competition standpoint, not because you feel violated. But I could be wrong, and as a "cat whacker" I may have to learn some manners before I can wear a blue blazer.


Keith,
That whole thread has nothing to do with rules, etiquette, or politeness. It's got to do with a couple of jerkoffs, who hate multis and really hate catsailors ,trolling for responses.
If you're screwing with someone else's race you're probably screwing with your own too. That being said with the disparity in speeds it's almost a non-issue to begin with. Those twits just won't hear it.
The AO boats go where it's fast for them,not someone else.
Racing is Racing.

p.s. Figured out anything for the timeshare?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Passing to windward [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #224235
11/15/10 06:49 PM
11/15/10 06:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Three boat lengths to windward is about right when racing, they wont be interested in taking you up and the wind shadow is reduced.
Darryn
Mozzie
1782

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Jake] #224245
11/15/10 09:43 PM
11/15/10 09:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Some sailors always keep the tiller extension fully open in order to provide that berth of a few more feet to frustrate an approaching boat. RULES IS RULES.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: Passing to windward [Re: arbo06] #224247
11/15/10 09:54 PM
11/15/10 09:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
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Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
So, clarification on passing rules? especially when approaching a mark. Windward boat has rights if there is an overlap? Leeward boat must unengage, eliminate the overlap and then tack vs a tack in front of the windward boat? How far does an overlap extend?


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: Passing to windward [Re: arbo06] #224249
11/15/10 10:11 PM
11/15/10 10:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Isotope235  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by arbo06
So, clarification on passing rules? especially when approaching a mark. Windward boat has rights if there is an overlap? Leeward boat must unengage, eliminate the overlap and then tack vs a tack in front of the windward boat? How far does an overlap extend?

There are no "passing rules", persay. Refer to rule 11 "ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED" and rule 18 "MARK ROOM" for rights and obligations at a windward mark. I strongly urge you to flip to the back of your rule book and read the "Definitions", especially "Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap" and "Leeward and Windward". That should answer most questions.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #224253
11/16/10 12:07 AM
11/16/10 12:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline OP
veteran
Keith  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
Keith,
That whole thread has nothing to do with rules, etiquette, or politeness. It's got to do with a couple of jerkoffs, who hate multis and really hate catsailors ,trolling for responses.
If you're screwing with someone else's race you're probably screwing with your own too. That being said with the disparity in speeds it's almost a non-issue to begin with. Those twits just won't hear it.
The AO boats go where it's fast for them,not someone else.
Racing is Racing.

p.s. Figured out anything for the timeshare?



Todd - I understand the underlying nonsense in the SA thread. Just wondering where the nugget of truth might be that the BS is built upon. I'm with you that the relative speed and size of the boats make the whole thing meaningless. We're not talking jet ski style buzzing here. I have yet to come to any understanding about how this ruins somebody's race. If the speed were similar and you parked on top of somebody, maybe. If you can convince me that everything else about your race was exactly perfect, maybe. How about I fall off, pass to leeward, but then come back on starboard tack, would that be better than simply going by to windward. I wonder. But...

In the following clip around 1:17 we line up and set up to pass two monos to windward. ~35 mile distance race, lightish air, large boats, we're on the line to the next mark. I choose to go above them. Not showboating, not showing who's superior, not intentionally messing with somebody's race, I've just got a goal of running my race and getting to the finish as fast as possible.




OK, or am I a cat whacker?

The funny thing in this is that later we approach an A0 boat to windward, there's another that's to windward of us. Pretty large lane, but as we approach the leeward A0 starts coming up. Eventually we get squeezed between the two of them in a shadow we can't escape from (the boats weren't as close together as that makes it sound). Don't know if the boat was messing with us, or if we happened to be in the wrong place as they decided to go after the other A0. The boat behind us that we had passed for the lead in our class sees this, hardens up, and passes all of us to windward. We end up blowing the sheets, slowing down, crossing the windward boat's transom and then rolling both of them to windward. We loose a trophy spot as a result. My only feeling is that I should have passed them all to windward in the first place. But maybe I have two things to feel bad about - loosing the place and passing them to windward? By the way, to my knowledge there were no complaints about any of the above (I don't have any), just throwing out an example.

I've been passed to windward out sailing and racing, my response is usually "look at them go!" Not "you dirty SOB you passed me to windward".

So anyway, good discussion.

On the timeshare - the best scenarios I come up with are 1) you move up here to the land of pleasant living 2) I get one, you get one, we do some two boat testing... I've started to get the real desire for one of those things! Unfortunate money reality right now is I need to find a new trailer for the Corsair. But the thought is still there...

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Keith] #224269
11/16/10 09:03 AM
11/16/10 09:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Keith,

I haven't read the SA thread. I avoid SA because people there seem to delight in being vulgar and abusive. That's simply aggravation I don't need.

As you describe it, I don't think you (nor the other boats) did anything at all disrespectful or unsportsmanlike. Navigating through other boats on the racecourse, whether or not they are in your class, is part of the game - just like dealing with windshifts, shallows, current, or shore effects. I don't get angry when someone crosses or passes me, nor do I feel guilty for crossing or passing another.

I think people forget that the water belongs equally to all the boats. That is the source of this sort of gripe. Many folks believe that other classes should stay off "their" racecourse and complain bitterly when they meet. I've even heard people argue that a starboard-tack boat should have kept clear of them (on port-tack) because they were in a different class. The reality is that they got in a disadvantageous situation and want to blame someone else.

I don't think there's much one can do to fix that attitude.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Passing to windward [Re: Isotope235] #224275
11/16/10 10:47 AM
11/16/10 10:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
I think people forget that the water belongs equally to all the boats. That is the source of this sort of gripe. Many folks believe that other classes should stay off "their" racecourse and complain bitterly when they meet. I've even heard people argue that a starboard-tack boat should have kept clear of them (on port-tack) because they were in a different class. The reality is that they got in a disadvantageous situation and want to blame someone else.

I don't think there's much one can do to fix that attitude.


In the immortal words of Ron White: "YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!!!"

Mike


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