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Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: John Williams] #224507
11/21/10 11:51 PM
11/21/10 11:51 PM
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Stewart Offline
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The challenge is Ts were dropped due to their cost and not "technology". Stars are much more expensive and thus exclusive..
So based on this all keelboats should be dropped from the Olympics..

As for the "legends" aruments.. I guess we could ask Mohammen Ali to fight Jo Frazier for an Olympic gold medal.. They are "legends"..

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Stewart] #224529
11/22/10 12:45 PM
11/22/10 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Stewart
The challenge is Ts were dropped due to their cost and not "technology". Stars are much more expensive and thus exclusive..
So based on this all keelboats should be dropped from the Olympics..

As for the "legends" aruments.. I guess we could ask Mohammen Ali to fight Jo Frazier for an Olympic gold medal.. They are "legends"..

In public that is what they say. I think that some of the developmental issues that played a part in the last Olympics did not bode well for the Tornado. Sail development has been a part of the last 2-3 Olympics, from materials to design. That is why the class is promoting SMOD for the class.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: windswept] #224556
11/22/10 11:50 PM
11/22/10 11:50 PM
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Stewart Offline
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Tom that is another red herring.. "development". 470s, stars fins all develop each year.

Fact is its a political game. Trying to gain advantage for the relevant "NA" to get another medal at Olympic level. Thus the outright lying and Machiavellia behavior of the USA NA during the vote on Ts.. Then they and the NZ NA got upset when caught pulling themselves.


Still a class has a optimum range of crew weights. The tighter the rules the tighter the window of crew weights. Only a formula open or development rules allow enough latitude to give a wide crew weight ability.

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Stewart] #224561
11/23/10 10:08 AM
11/23/10 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Stewart
The challenge is Ts were dropped due to their cost and not "technology". Stars are much more expensive and thus exclusive..
So based on this all keelboats should be dropped from the Olympics..

As for the "legends" aruments.. I guess we could ask Mohammen Ali to fight Jo Frazier for an Olympic gold medal.. They are "legends"..


Something I hadn't thought of, which I think is a valid reason for keeping keelboats, is that the keelboat infrastructure is required for Paralympics. If you remove the requirement for this stuff at the Olympics, it could affect venues not wanting to invest for the Paralympics; Sad, but probably true.

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: maritimesailor] #224569
11/23/10 11:12 AM
11/23/10 11:12 AM
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>Something I hadn't thought of, which I think is a valid reason for keeping keelboats, is that the keelboat infrastructure is required for Paralympics. <

Would the the Hobie Trapseat/program work for the Paralympics?

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Stewart] #224642
11/26/10 01:55 PM
11/26/10 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stewart
Tom that is another red herring.. "development". 470s, stars fins all develop each year.

Fact is its a political game. Trying to gain advantage for the relevant "NA" to get another medal at Olympic level. Thus the outright lying and Machiavellia behavior of the USA NA during the vote on Ts.. Then they and the NZ NA got upset when caught pulling themselves.


Still a class has a optimum range of crew weights. The tighter the rules the tighter the window of crew weights. Only a formula open or development rules allow enough latitude to give a wide crew weight ability.

Oh I believe that it is a red-hearing, but it was definately used as a reason. I may be the only one out here that thinks that the Tornado for many reasons is still the best boat and class for a 2016 multihull. I do not think that changing from open to mixed changes it all that much.

Last edited by windswept; 11/26/10 01:55 PM.

Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: windswept] #224716
11/29/10 10:31 PM
11/29/10 10:31 PM
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Hi guys. I've been lurking for a while and finally thought I'd put in my 2 cents (feel free to ask for a refund). If we look ahead to mixed crews and the boats available there's a few options avaiable:

T: Proven track record in Olympics. Bit big for mixed crews worldwide (yes, the current world champs are mixed but this is the exception rather than the norm). This is the turnkey solution.

Hobie Tiger: Proven manufacturer. Can be sailed with mixed crews. Boat sits within F18 class rules but also has "the blue sticker". So, if someone decides to campaign for the olympics they have the best of both worlds. One design racing for Olympic qualifying spots and an incredibly strong F18 fleet to participate and train in. F18 association don't get their nose out of joint because it's a dated design that top F18 sailors won't go back to thereby offering protection to the ideals of the class, while still promoting it.

16 foot high performance: Probably the Viper as it's a great boat with a track record and production capacity. It's size will mean the sailors will have to be lighter.

H16: Great as the "Laser" of the multihull world. Global participation. But, it's a H16.

Custom Design: Not likely as there's enough manufacturers out there with an option already.

Any others? Is one of the above a stand out against the rest?

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Gav F18] #224718
11/29/10 11:21 PM
11/29/10 11:21 PM
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That's a well informed and fair summary

I wonder anyone at Isaf thinks the same!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: TEAMVMG] #224744
11/30/10 12:58 PM
11/30/10 12:58 PM
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Agreed, that was quite possibly the best post in this thread. Mostly factual (let's face it, all of this is subjective), and right to the point.

As for ISAF's "thinking," the only thing (that's currently in contention) that I'd put money on for Rio, is that in one way or another, we will see keelboats for men.

Mike

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: ] #224915
12/04/10 01:20 PM
12/04/10 01:20 PM
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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: H17cat] #229491
03/09/11 12:15 AM
03/09/11 12:15 AM
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Gav F18 Offline
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....bump

I think I remember the decision on this being in May. If so then someone, somewhere knows the answer already....

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Gav F18] #229517
03/09/11 03:02 PM
03/09/11 03:02 PM
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I vote for the Formula 16 Class. The future of the F 16 builders and owners would be best served by having the 2016 Games as a goal. I bet the Class would enjoy great prosperity.

The US Formula 18 Class Association passed on the invite to my understanding. Did the F 18 International governing body lobby for inclusion?

I have heard from an ISAF Race Officer that cats are in as a mixed team. Which platform is best suited for this honor?

We should know by May.

Viper 2010

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: catandahalf] #229518
03/09/11 03:13 PM
03/09/11 03:13 PM
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Duck and cover!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: pgp] #229519
03/09/11 03:48 PM
03/09/11 03:48 PM
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I think the Viper One-Design would be the best mixed team platform. I assume they will probably have an evaluation event before they decide. Of course the way ISAF goes I'd say we are not yet guaranteed to have any multihull. You just never know until the end. The meeting is early May.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: catandahalf] #229521
03/09/11 04:05 PM
03/09/11 04:05 PM
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Bert:
Originally Posted by catandahalf
Did the F 18 International governing body lobby for inclusion?


Previously address:
Originally Posted by John Williams
The International F18 Class has made a submission for the meeting in Athens; the Class supports a multihull event, but does not support the selection of any existing F18 design. The Council was unanimous on this wording, but it was contentious getting there - some wanted to make it crystal clear to the current builders that the Class feels strongly the selection of an F18 for the Games would be bad for the Class. Stronger wording was considered. Letters to the manufacturers were considered. In the end, a point of view that I agree with prevailed; the Class can't stop a builder from submitting their boat, and the relationship between the Class and the builders needs to remain positive and cooperative.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Kris Hathaway] #229522
03/09/11 04:16 PM
03/09/11 04:16 PM
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Whatever boat that is selected, it would great if they can replicate the fairness achieved with the Hobie Alter Cup. All teams rotating on identically manufacture supplied boats.



Kris Hathaway
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: catandahalf] #229523
03/09/11 04:36 PM
03/09/11 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by catandahalf
I vote for the Formula 16 Class. The future of the F 16 builders and owners would be best served by having the 2016 Games as a goal. I bet the Class would enjoy great prosperity


It would be neat if they allowed it to be a class but it will never happen. Arms race and the concern that the boat, not sailors, won the medal. However, I always point to bobsledding and ask how is it different.

Choosing a boat that is part of formula class will test the class and manufacture's resolve but it can work if everyone remains civil.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Kris Hathaway] #229524
03/09/11 04:43 PM
03/09/11 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
but it can work if everyone remains civil.


kiss YOU!!!!!!!




































sarcasm there. not serious in the slightest.


I'm boatless.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Karl_Brogger] #229526
03/09/11 04:49 PM
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Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Karl_Brogger] #229527
03/09/11 04:59 PM
03/09/11 04:59 PM
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Kris Hathaway
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