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Gybe mark rules #226650
01/11/11 08:44 PM
01/11/11 08:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline OP
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Tim_Mozzie  Offline OP
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I would like to start some rules discussions going on this forum, as it seems to me from the discussions at State and National titles that we're not all clear on some areas. As I've looked into it I've been quite surprised at just how complicated the right-of-way rules can be.

So to start the ball rolling, the gybe mark on a triangular course seems a simple enough situation. Who gives way to who when rounding the gybe mark?

One area of difficulty seems to occur when there is a boat that has sailed high (A) that is then running down to the mark (and may even gybe before reaching the mark) and a boat that has gone low and is reaching up to the mark (B).

B will be travelling much faster than A, so there is a good chance that B could get an inside overlap too late (after A has already entered the 3-boat-length zone). That would mean B will either have to duck around the back of A or go the wrong side of the mark.

On the other hand if A is sailing well off the wind (or gybed) the line across the back of her rudders could well be overlapping B, so B could have an overlap from a long way off.

If A has already gybed on to Port by the time they converge, can B call "Starboard"?

From reading rule 18 it looks to me that port/starboard is completely irrelevant at this mark, and only the question of the inside overlap and when it was established matters.



Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
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Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #226665
01/11/11 11:38 PM
01/11/11 11:38 PM
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Originally Posted by Tim_Mozzie


From reading rule 18 it looks to me that port/starboard is completely irrelevant at this mark, and only the question of the inside overlap and when it was established matters.


I interpret it that way also, with A running so deep a line drawn across the back of A could stretch 250m back meaning A has to give mark room to all boats in the zone including B.

Thats all in the perfect world of the rule book of course.

The contradictory part of the rules is often A has boats to windward and a legal inside overlap established by B seconds before arriving at the mark doesn't allow A time or opportunity to give B room. One of the major changes I have noted in reading the 2009-2012 rules and interpretations is the concept of allowing the boat which has to give room, time and opportunity to give that room when the Right of Way boat first establishes it.

This thread is a very good idea, only a month ago, while sailing in a different class, someone was screaming mast a beam at me on the race course, that rule disappeared in the 80's grin

Darryn
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Last edited by Darryn; 01/12/11 01:04 AM. Reason: some of the spelling mistakes
Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Darryn] #226666
01/12/11 01:34 AM
01/12/11 01:34 AM
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline OP
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Quote
The contradictory part of the rules is often A has boats to windward and a legal inside overlap established by B seconds before arriving at the mark doesn't allow A time or opportunity to give B room.


Good point. There was a protest at our last state titles because the boat on the inside wasn't given mark-room. The protest was not upheld because there was another boat outside both of them who was deemed by the protest committee to be the one that caused the problem. Whether that boat had the opportunity or not to give mark-room for both boats inside would have been the thing to determine- and a difficult thing to prove either way I would say.

That also raises the definition of overlap which says two boats that would not normally be overlapped, become overlapped when a boat between them overlaps both. So when there are three boats strung out but overlapping in a line, the first and last boat count as overlapped. Strangely this doesn't seem to extend to 4 or more boats in a line (this is what I mean by it getting complicated!).


"Mast abeam" - He he laugh


Tim Shepperd
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Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #226721
01/13/11 01:22 AM
01/13/11 01:22 AM
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline OP
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From Peter:

Does the Blue boat get buoy-room?

Attached Files
gybe.JPG (457 downloads)
gybe copy.jpg (448 downloads)

Tim Shepperd
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Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #226743
01/13/11 04:09 PM
01/13/11 04:09 PM
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i say yes

Last edited by Matt_Stone; 01/13/11 09:15 PM.
Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Matt_Stone] #226758
01/13/11 07:59 PM
01/13/11 07:59 PM
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Victoria Australia
Petern Offline
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That right matt
The answer is The boats were overlapped when the first boat reached the zone. Rule 18.2(b) requires Red (the outside boat with right-of-way) to give Blue (the inside boat) mark-room.
Peter N

Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #226762
01/13/11 08:38 PM
01/13/11 08:38 PM
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Petern Offline
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Here Is anther one
Who has room at the mark? and why?

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gybe 3.JPG (593 downloads)
Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Petern] #226765
01/13/11 09:19 PM
01/13/11 09:19 PM
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the green has all rights around the buoy, and blue has to give room for red as red has overlap inside the 3 boat length
correct me if im wrong
Matt

ps, on paper is looks easy but when your in the situation on the water, its seems different at times

Last edited by Matt_Stone; 01/13/11 09:21 PM.
Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Matt_Stone] #226767
01/13/11 11:34 PM
01/13/11 11:34 PM
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Red has to give Green room as Red was clear astern entering the zone. As there is an overlap with both boats inside her, Blue must give room for both the others..... or I could be wrong. I agree with Matt though.. it's a lot harder on the water

Last edited by Simon C; 01/13/11 11:35 PM. Reason: typo

Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Simon C] #226771
01/14/11 06:07 AM
01/14/11 06:07 AM
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I'm more concerned with post #3 where the protest from a boat in the right was dismissed because a third boat was the one causing the problems. As i see it the boat on the inside was denied their rights because of a third party. They should have won their protest and it would have been up to the middle boat to protest the outside boat for not giving both inside boats room.

Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Jethrow] #226773
01/14/11 06:40 AM
01/14/11 06:40 AM
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South Oz
Phillip Offline
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Great exercise Tim, but diagrams can be a leeward mark that requires a simple hardening of sheets to head off on starboard (#1)port(#2)tack. Post in a mark with boats approaching on opposite tacks and requiring a gybe to round it as the original posting describes. Cat among the mossies then!

Last edited by Phillip; 01/14/11 06:44 AM.

Tortured ply is clearly beautiful.
Mozzie Aldebaran VI
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Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Jethrow] #226808
01/14/11 07:51 PM
01/14/11 07:51 PM
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline OP
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I guess the protest committee's opinion was that the inner boat with buoy-room had protested the wrong boat. That is, the one in the middle was not found to be at fault.

Maybe the protest committee should have put in a protest against the 3rd boat themselves under rule 60.3(a)(2). It would have been too late for the middle boat to put in a protest against the 3rd.


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
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Re: Gybe mark rules [Re: Phillip] #226809
01/14/11 07:56 PM
01/14/11 07:56 PM
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline OP
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Quote
Post in a mark with boats approaching on opposite tacks and requiring a gybe to round it


Well I was hoping to deal with the gybe (wing) mark first, then maybe move on to the leeward mark after we had done that to death!


Tim Shepperd
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Re: Leeward mark rules [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #226859
01/16/11 01:57 AM
01/16/11 01:57 AM
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline OP
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[Linked Image]

Situations like this can get more complicated with cats because the boats can be travelling at very different speeds. In this case the red boat will probably be travelling a lot slower than the others and if the blue boat was any lower she could be travelling faster than green.

Sometimes this could cause a boat like blue to get to the mark ahead of red then just forget all about giving red mark-room. Then if blue does a bad rounding and parks at the mark red could be forced to go outside blue. Blue should take a penalty in that case.


Tim Shepperd
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Re: Leeward mark rules [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #226889
01/17/11 02:23 AM
01/17/11 02:23 AM
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Victoria Australia
Petern Offline
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You on the ball Tim.The thing to remember is that the rules are there to keep boat apart, and the zone was extended form two boats to three so to give you more time to esstadlish how has room. In saying this we all should remember rule 14

Attached Files
gybe 4.JPG (180 downloads)
Last edited by Petern; 01/17/11 03:28 AM.
Re: Leeward mark rules [Re: Petern] #227078
01/19/11 04:50 PM
01/19/11 04:50 PM
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Darryn Offline
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Rule 14 Avoiding Contact
A Boat Shall avoid another Boat if reasonably possible. However a Right of Way boat or one entitled to room or Mark room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or Mark room, and
(b)shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury.

This is a good rule if racing bumper boats, (Lasers, Hobies that sort of thing) its not a good rule for light weight composite boats that are not damage tolerant. A game of chicken can result where the Right Of Way boat avoids contact at the last second, the boat in the wrong claims they acted to avoid contact and the ROW changed course unnecessarily and therefore no penalty, if contact had occurred the damage is the evidence.

In my opinion there are several options to fix this.
1, We all carry GPS and protest sorting out the result by playing back the incident after the race. I have used this for 6 years now and it works very well even if the other boat doesn't have GPS it still proves what my boat did. The disadvantage is the cost.
or
2, Change the rules so that both boats involved in a collision have to retire regardless of who is at fault. No penalty turns to cancel the incident. The not at fault boat awarded average points.
or
3, We should at least keep the two turn penalty for any part 2 "When boats Meet" infringement for our big events. Mozzys gybe and tack so fast now, a one turn penalty just isn't enough.

These are my opinions developed from sailing in many classes over 30 years, certainly I dont have a specific problem with any Mosquito sailors who, as a group, sail races fairly making our regattas very enjoyable.

Darryn,
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Last edited by Darryn; 01/19/11 05:28 PM.
Re: Leeward mark rules [Re: Darryn] #227089
01/19/11 11:22 PM
01/19/11 11:22 PM
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Lake Bonney, SA
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Tim,
This is a great idea and one way of clearing the rules issues for all.
The situation of collisions tho' does need some clarification as ISAF rules are now driven by commercial marine law, in that International Rules for Prevention of Collisions at Sea apply and as such create a bundle of worms for those driven entirely by sailing rules, but basically it says that it is the resposibility of each vessel (whether they have right of way or not) to prevent a collision.
So when you add this into the mix the rules can become clouded especially if someone wants to play checken and others don't want to protest and not everyone knows them.

My 2 bob's worth.

David
Salpicon de Resplandor, 1744

Re: Leeward mark rules [Re: dkd] #227094
01/20/11 02:11 AM
01/20/11 02:11 AM
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Matt_Stone Offline
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ok thin that pic, the blue has right of way, red has to keep clear and has no over lap means theres no room at mark,
as i see it there both on port so if the blue one gybes, the blue is now on starboard and has all rights, but in other hand there was an incident at nats where there in the same situation, on starboard and at wing mark gybing on port, i claimed that there was no bouy room as i was the slower boat i gybed at the mark and the boat that had no overlap came screaming on starboard and cut me off from the mark and had to avoid a collision, the over sailor claimed he had overlap, but i didnt think he had any but was coming fast from behind, whos in the right and whos in the wrong?

Matt

Re: Leeward mark rules [Re: Matt_Stone] #227095
01/20/11 04:01 AM
01/20/11 04:01 AM
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Victoria Australia
Petern Offline
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Victoria Australia
Hi Matt. I have been in the same situation on a number of occasion on the gybe mark where the out side boat gybes wide of the mark and comes in on starboard and thinks he has the rights.So here is my understanding of the rules following the last picture.Red is entitled to room. Red reaches the zone first. Before Blue reaches the zone after her gybe, she becomes overlapped outside Red and must give mark-room in accordance with rule 18.2(a)Peter N

Attached Files
gybe 5.JPG (123 downloads)
gybe 6.JPG (125 downloads)
gybe 7.JPG (124 downloads)
Re: Leeward mark rules [Re: Petern] #227132
01/20/11 02:54 PM
01/20/11 02:54 PM
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Matt_Stone Offline
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Originally Posted by Petern
Before Blue reaches the zone after her gybe, she becomes overlapped outside Red and must give mark-room in accordance with rule 18.2(a)Peter N


who has rughts? confusing!

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