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Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: ACE11] #226822
01/15/11 08:35 AM
01/15/11 08:35 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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An A class sailing in a A class competition is an a A class , an A class racing in a mixed competition ( like on your local club night where the majority of racing takes place), has to have a handicap rating, at a rough guide I think this is 1.01 under SCHRS

Add a 2.0 blade jib and reduce the main to 10.94 and the handicap drops to 0.883. An all conquering Tornado with probably 2.5 times the sail area is 0.935, so you can see the 2 sail A really does not stand much chance of development outside of the A class.

Now we all know that on the water in top hands the Uni will beat the sloop. Oops the handicap system gets that one sooooooooooooo wrong and that is the problem with light weight boats/jibs/ weight. But this very real problem (m which is stopping boat development in my opinion )is another thread and not what we should be discussing here on this particular thread.

Last edited by waynemarlow; 01/15/11 08:47 AM.
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Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: waynemarlow] #226824
01/15/11 08:48 AM
01/15/11 08:48 AM
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Brisvegas
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We use a performance based system so it doesn't care whether an A is set up differently such as sloop configuration or different profile foils or curved boards etc.
It must drive you crazy measuring all the different ways an A can be set up. How do you handle curved foils for instance?

Last edited by ACE11; 01/15/11 08:48 AM.
Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: ACE11] #226825
01/15/11 08:57 AM
01/15/11 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ACE11
We use a performance based system


Many have tried to setup a performance based handicap system but most have failed due to lack of information. Interestingly the new "Sailwave " scoring program has a feedback system and the likes of the RYA have expressed interest to get better more fair handicap systems.

The problem is though as fast as the Handicap system changes, the speed of development seems to keep one step ahead, but with a little investment and the use of computers, surely we should be in a better position than we really actually are.

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: waynemarlow] #226827
01/15/11 09:06 AM
01/15/11 09:06 AM
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Brisvegas
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No easy answer. The measurement systems seem to struggle with the formula classes like F18 and A's. The performance systems struggle to get timely and relevant feedback - certainly the case in AUS. Although I've seen the yardstick for an A go from 76 to 70.5 over the time I've been sailing them - don't ask how long!

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: ACE11] #226828
01/15/11 09:08 AM
01/15/11 09:08 AM
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Yes the F18 is a classic, huge development of sail and hulls and yet the handicap has not changed much, mmmmmm cool

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: waynemarlow] #226855
01/15/11 08:01 PM
01/15/11 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Yes the F18 is a classic, huge development of sail and hulls and yet the handicap has not changed much, mmmmmm cool


The F18 has not changed as other boats moved around it. The SCHRS management group are currently finalising some changes to the rule for March implementation (subject to ratification); we are also dicussing the areas that Wayne has highlighted; looking at what is actually happening with developments and doing a lot of analysis and thinking; changes may result - we all do have day jobs as well.



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Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: scooby_simon] #226878
01/16/11 04:10 PM
01/16/11 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
- we all do have day jobs as well.


So, thats how the capitilist world works.

If the SCHRS wants to be at the forefront of sailing and part of the handicap system, then it is going to have to sharpen its thinking. SCHRS has got behind the loop and now its members will have to put in a few hours to correct this. Take good bold decisions now and you can then step back and enjoy the fruits of your labours, get it wrong and it will become yet another derided system.

Now I like its simplicity and openess as a handicap system, so I'm voting for you guys to get it right but please don't be wimps and let the heavy weight brigade protect their corner, yes by making constructive changes, you will upset some but in the long run, you will do us all a favour.

Oh and thanks and I do mean thanks, to all who are prepared to work on these type of issues, as without you, we would all not be able to race. smile

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: waynemarlow] #226895
01/17/11 06:40 AM
01/17/11 06:40 AM
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stealth f16 sloop --- published schrs 1.075 -- looks like a bandit to me wink

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: Codblow] #226898
01/17/11 06:54 AM
01/17/11 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Codblow
stealth f16 sloop --- published schrs 1.075 -- looks like a bandit to me wink
That's not the Stealth F16, that's a Stealth pre 'R' with a small main and a minuscule blade jib.

I don't believe anyone is racing a Stealth in this configuration anymore.

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: pepin] #226907
01/17/11 10:02 AM
01/17/11 10:02 AM
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At this point, the A-Class sloop rig has a window where it is competitive (over 18 knots from my observations). Randy will try an iteration where the main gets a bit bigger and the jib smaller, he'll tweak the trim controls, and he'll get more time on the water with it but it will be a challenge closing the gap we saw with the rig in the 12-15 knots we had on the last day of racing last week. The top four finishers in each of the four races that day were consistently 1/2 to 3/4 of a leg ahead of the sloop rig at the finish. Randy knows this for sure but he's having a lot of fun just seeing what he can do with it. You have to admire him for that.

If you have not figured it out, we kind of set everyone up last week with the online comment that Randy was on the beach before everyone else after Tuesday's light air race(had to have some fun with that). He was there because he saw the wind dying to the point where the race would be abandoned and headed to the beach at the first weather mark (he was actually in the top ten in that race) while the rest of us drifted or paddled in.


Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: pepin] #227012
01/18/11 02:00 PM
01/18/11 02:00 PM
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Codblow Offline
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Originally Posted by pepin
Originally Posted by Codblow
stealth f16 sloop --- published schrs 1.075 -- looks like a bandit to me wink
That's not the Stealth F16, that's a Stealth pre 'R' with a small main and a minuscule blade jib.

I don't believe anyone is racing a Stealth in this configuration anymore.


actually I think its more of a "faux pas" as REAL Stealth f16 ratings have dissapeared, the rating I quoted was listed against STEALTH F16 which definately aren't the listed dimensions nor rating

just me being mischievous again wink forgot in a multinational forum my comments can be taken so literally

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: waynemarlow] #227081
01/19/11 05:31 PM
01/19/11 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
- we all do have day jobs as well.


So, thats how the capitilist world works.

If the SCHRS wants to be at the forefront of sailing and part of the handicap system, then it is going to have to sharpen its thinking. SCHRS has got behind the loop and now its members will have to put in a few hours to correct this. Take good bold decisions now and you can then step back and enjoy the fruits of your labours, get it wrong and it will become yet another derided system.

Now I like its simplicity and openess as a handicap system, so I'm voting for you guys to get it right but please don't be wimps and let the heavy weight brigade protect their corner, yes by making constructive changes, you will upset some but in the long run, you will do us all a favour.

Oh and thanks and I do mean thanks, to all who are prepared to work on these type of issues, as without you, we would all not be able to race. smile


Wayne, you stepping up to Help?


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: scooby_simon] #227096
01/20/11 06:20 AM
01/20/11 06:20 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon

Wayne, you stepping up to Help?


Now Simon, you do know me better than to level that old chestnut. I can send references from other clubs and groups where I have more than " pulled my weight ".

As you already know, there already has been some dialogue going on between the SCHRS and myself, if they need further help, then they only have to ask.

Re: Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat? [Re: waynemarlow] #227153
01/20/11 05:54 PM
01/20/11 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by scooby_simon

Wayne, you stepping up to Help?


Now Simon, you do know me better than to level that old chestnut. I can send references from other clubs and groups where I have more than " pulled my weight ".

As you already know, there already has been some dialogue going on between the SCHRS and myself, if they need further help, then they only have to ask.


;-)


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