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Strange but real right-of-way question #229411
03/07/11 09:54 AM
03/07/11 09:54 AM
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JACKFLASH Offline OP
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So in a non race scenario, who has write away? An F18 screaming on a starboard reach with the kite up, or a sea plane coming in for a landing. It actuall was not that close but imagine my surprise to see this thing coming down behind us. Then he turned toward us as he taxi'd around the lake before taking off again. Yet another first for me.


Collin Casey
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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: JACKFLASH] #229413
03/07/11 10:05 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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Rule 18 sub part e, of the open water Collision Regulations (col regs) apply here. It sort of common sense. Logic and col regs dictates that the less manueverable craft should have the right-of-way.
A vessel towing anything will have ultimate right of way. Sail boats and unpowered craft come next on the food chain. Then there are power boats. Howerver a sea-plane is less maneuvarable than a power boat/do not have reverse, limited steering on water. Unless the sea-plane has an open commercial lane, here is Col Reg 18 with part (e):


Rule 18

Responsibilities Between Vessels

Except where rule 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:

(a)A power driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;

(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing;

(iv)a sailing vessel;

(b) A sailing vessel under way shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; (dont go near the big ships...)

(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing; (they get really pissed)

(c)A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.

(d)

(i)Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.

(ii) A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition.

(e) A seaplane on the water shall, in general, keep well clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation. In circumstances, however, where risk of collision exists, she shall comply with the Rules of this Part.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: rexdenton] #229414
03/07/11 10:54 AM
03/07/11 10:54 AM
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Sloansailing Offline
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Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: rexdenton] #229415
03/07/11 10:58 AM
03/07/11 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
Rule 18 sub part e, of the open water Collision Regulations (col regs) apply here. It sort of common sense. Logic and col regs dictates that the less manueverable craft should have the right-of-way.
A vessel towing anything will have ultimate right of way. Sail boats and unpowered craft come next on the food chain. Then there are power boats. Howerver a sea-plane is less maneuvarable than a power boat/do not have reverse, limited steering on water. Unless the sea-plane has an open commercial lane, here is Col Reg 18 with part (e):


Not true at all. Seaplane has to give way to a sailboat. Also vessels engaged in towing have to give way to sailboats UNLESS they are displaying shapes/lights for "restricted in ability to maneuver." They are only restricted in ability to maneuver if they are displaying the shapes/lights.

I do agree about common sense though! Sailboats generally can get out of the way and should do so. Also changes when navigating VTS lanes.

Last edited by Sloansailing; 03/07/11 11:00 AM.

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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Sloansailing] #229417
03/07/11 11:32 AM
03/07/11 11:32 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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I guess a seaplane can't veer from the moment it touches the water until it slows down enough to do it without capsizing. Wouldn't it be fair to consider that it is restricted in its ability to maneuver during this period?


Luiz
Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Luiz] #229419
03/07/11 11:36 AM
03/07/11 11:36 AM
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There are some great cartoons in here somewhere. Too bad I can't draw.


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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Luiz] #229422
03/07/11 12:51 PM
03/07/11 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Luiz
I guess a seaplane can't veer from the moment it touches the water until it slows down enough to do it without capsizing. Wouldn't it be fair to consider that it is restricted in its ability to maneuver during this period?


Nope. Basic right of way pecking order seaplane always gives way to sailboat.

"Restricted in Ability to Maneuver" means the vessel is displaying shapes or lights to indicate they are restricted. This is defined in the COLREGS. There is no interpretation of a vessels ability to maneuver, either they are displaying these shapes or not.

Now, if a seaplane is coming in to land and a vessel changes course as to interfere with the course of the plane, you have a different scenario. But, the seaplane is required to keep clear and plan its approach such that it will not force another vessel to change course because of its actions. In Victoria Harbor on Vancouver Island the seaplanes come in and out of the harbor all the time. There are very defined traffic lanes for seaplanes and water vessels, and they are very close. Sometimes can be scary because they will bank hard and descend very quickly, in very close proximity to vessels in the water. You have to stay in your traffic lane and trust the seaplane will do the same.


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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Sloansailing] #229424
03/07/11 01:42 PM
03/07/11 01:42 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Originally Posted by rexdenton
Rule 18 sub part e, of the open water Collision Regulations (col regs) apply here. It sort of common sense. Logic and col regs dictates that the less manueverable craft should have the right-of-way.
A vessel towing anything will have ultimate right of way. Sail boats and unpowered craft come next on the food chain. Then there are power boats. Howerver a sea-plane is less maneuvarable than a power boat/do not have reverse, limited steering on water. Unless the sea-plane has an open commercial lane, here is Col Reg 18 with part (e):


Not true at all. Seaplane has to give way to a sailboat. Also vessels engaged in towing have to give way to sailboats UNLESS they are displaying shapes/lights for "restricted in ability to maneuver." They are only restricted in ability to maneuver if they are displaying the shapes/lights.

I do agree about common sense though! Sailboats generally can get out of the way and should do so. Also changes when navigating VTS lanes.


Sloan, That's what I was trying to imply by '18e', (the bird must give ROW to the sailing vessel). That said, the common sense application of 'avoid collision by all means' certainly applies on a long taxi by the sea-plane. While the sailboat may have ROW over a sea-plane taxiing at take-off speed, you'd have to be out of your mind to hold an intercepting course.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: rexdenton] #229425
03/07/11 02:35 PM
03/07/11 02:35 PM
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JACKFLASH Offline OP
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I was asking more for curiosity sake. I had never encountered a sea plane before yesterday. I will tell you that if I was in his way I would not have been able to get out of his way in time. By the time we realized the noise being heard was a seaplan he 15 feet above the water and moving at a good clip. When he was taxing he kept a desent distance but he was close enough we could see the pilot giving a freindly waive through the **** glass.


Collin Casey
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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: JACKFLASH] #229427
03/07/11 04:09 PM
03/07/11 04:09 PM
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Rye, Melb, Vic, Australia
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As another case, I have had a helicopter fly onto the race course to pick up water to fight a nearby bush fire (do you call them wildfires in the U.S.?). Thankfully it was just after the start and all of the boats were grouped together at the other end of the course.


Mossie 1822
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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Peter_Lyons] #229428
03/07/11 04:53 PM
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brucat Offline
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You guys are on it. COLREGS should always be the first place to look regarding ROW questions.

Fire helicopter vs. sailboat? Thankfully, you don't see THAT every day! (Yes, we call them wildfires, also known as forest fires or brush fires as appropriate.)

Now, whether or not you believe that the US interstate system was designed for this; occasionally, small planes do make emergency landings on highways. Where does it say who has the right of way there?

Mike

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: brucat] #229429
03/07/11 05:06 PM
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JACKFLASH Offline OP
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Some say it is folklore other not. But the story is that one in five miles of interstate are built straight and flat to serve as an emergency runway in times of war. Rather that is true or not I don't know. I do know that part of the big push for the interstate system from Eisenhower was to be able to move troops quickly from place to place. This purpose, I beleive was the reason for the Autobahn.


Collin Casey
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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: rexdenton] #229430
03/07/11 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rexdenton

Sloan, That's what I was trying to imply by '18e', (the bird must give ROW to the sailing vessel). That said, the common sense application of 'avoid collision by all means' certainly applies on a long taxi by the sea-plane. While the sailboat may have ROW over a sea-plane taxiing at take-off speed, you'd have to be out of your mind to hold an intercepting course.


Agree. As I always say, theres "right" and theres "dead right"! Like pedestrians walking into a busy lane of traffic, you might have right of way, but is it worth your life to take it?


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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: JACKFLASH] #229431
03/07/11 05:28 PM
03/07/11 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Some say it is folklore other not. But the story is that one in five miles of interstate are built straight and flat to serve as an emergency runway in times of war. Rather that is true or not I don't know. I do know that part of the big push for the interstate system from Eisenhower was to be able to move troops quickly from place to place. This purpose, I beleive was the reason for the Autobahn.


Was in East Germany just after the wall came down and there are/were areas where the central reservation was fully covered with the barriers in; thus (I assumed at the time) that these could be removed easily and thus provide extra run-ways.....





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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: JACKFLASH] #229432
03/07/11 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Some say it is folklore other not. But the story is that one in five miles of interstate are built straight and flat to serve as an emergency runway in times of war. Rather that is true or not I don't know. I do know that part of the big push for the interstate system from Eisenhower was to be able to move troops quickly from place to place. This purpose, I beleive was the reason for the Autobahn.


That was the intent, but there was a SNAFU in the shipping department. It turned out to be cheaper to reshape the terrain throughout the country to fit the roadway sections delivered, which is why Nebraska is so flat, and why there's very few 1-mile long tangents throughout most hilly and mountainous areas.

Last edited by Rhino1302; 03/07/11 05:52 PM.
Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Sloansailing] #229435
03/07/11 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


Not if it's a commercial vessel. Only if it's recreational.

Quote
A commercial vessel is defined by the United States Coast Guard as any vessel (i.e. boat or ship) engaged in commercial trade or that carries passengers for hire.

Last edited by BLR_0719; 03/07/11 09:06 PM.


Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: BLR_0719] #229440
03/07/11 09:52 PM
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Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by BLR_0719
Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


Not if it's a commercial vessel. Only if it's recreational.


Conclusion: either the sea plane displays the proper shapes and lights during take off and landing or he'd better find a wide empty area.


Luiz
Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: BLR_0719] #229443
03/07/11 10:17 PM
03/07/11 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BLR_0719
Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


Not if it's a commercial vessel. Only if it's recreational.

Quote
A commercial vessel is defined by the United States Coast Guard as any vessel (i.e. boat or ship) engaged in commercial trade or that carries passengers for hire.


Don't think that is the case. I will have to check my books.


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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Sloansailing] #229450
03/08/11 08:25 AM
03/08/11 08:25 AM
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The bay where I'm sailing is a regular training area for military submarines. It happened to me last year that a half dived vessel was directly coming my way - only the last meter of the periscope was visible. I was downwinds with spi and saw nothing than the stern wash from the (admittingly perfectly camouflaged ...) periscope in the very last moment- I passed so close by that I feared for my boards. This was very, very frightening! What would have been the rules here?


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Re: Strange but real right-of-way question [Re: Baltic] #229452
03/08/11 08:45 AM
03/08/11 08:45 AM
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tampa, fl
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Any vessel armed with torpedo's has right-of-way.


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