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Olympic Catamaran #232274
05/12/11 10:46 AM
05/12/11 10:46 AM
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Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline OP
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These are happy times for catamaran fans but the re-introduction of a catamaran into the Olympic games is just the start. There are two other critical ingredients to making an Olympic catamaran a success.
1) Asspiring catamaran Olympians.
2) People who are willing to write checks when those asspiring Olympians come hat-in-hand.
Now is the time for everyone to encourage young people to take up the challenge and, just as importantly, to suport them when they do.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: rhodysail] #232292
05/12/11 12:39 PM
05/12/11 12:39 PM
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oxj Offline
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Unfortunately I think having a mixed multihull event is a joke for the Olympics so can't really get excited about even following it at this point.

Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: oxj] #232293
05/12/11 12:43 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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My suggestion:

Pick a stock catamaran. As part of Olympic Catamaran race class rules, everyone is weighed, and the competition fleet then all handicapped up to the maximum team weight, or set arbitrary upper (healthy human being) limit. Modify the "Olympic" boat to carry the weight as a handicap.

What say ye all to that idea?

Last edited by rexdenton; 05/12/11 12:54 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: rexdenton] #232302
05/12/11 02:06 PM
05/12/11 02:06 PM
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what weight would you use? many 'mericans are heavy. Many easterners are not.

Would you pick a global average weight/height?

How do they do it in other sports like rowing?

Should we have weight classes like wrestling/boxing with corresponding boats for each class (not now, but in the distant future)?


Jay

Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232303
05/12/11 02:12 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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What I was thinking would be based on the upper limit of the actual competitive field, up to say, some average arbitrary weight. This arbitrary weight would be subject to the National Class description (the MNA) for the geographical group, but would be revised to reflect the field for international events. That said, I understand what you are saying in that a team from Malaysia might have to carry 100 lbs if sailing against a Western team. Not impossible, but definitely an equalizer for potentially unhealthy weight behaviors, or skewed crew selections.

It's only an idea, but given the competiveness of the lighter crews in light conditions, such handicapping would attract and help to maintain interest of both younger and older participants, and mixed teams to the the sanctioned events. The local rules could conceivably be fudged to allow substitutions of crews of different weights to maximize participation on weekend 'fun' events while maintaining the weight parity.

Weight 'classes' is a non-starter for sailing, I'd say.

Last edited by rexdenton; 05/12/11 02:23 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: rexdenton] #232305
05/12/11 02:19 PM
05/12/11 02:19 PM
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ksurfer2 Offline
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I think your weight minimums are going to self regulate themselves to an extent. It's generally agreed that the mixed teams will have the girl driving and the guy pulling the strings. Is an 80 lb weenie going to be able to withstand the physical demands of the front of the boat? If this is not the case, then the argument for the girl to drive and the guy to pull strings does not hold water. Sure the crews will be small, but I doubt you'll see anything rediculous (that can be comptetitive).


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: ksurfer2] #232307
05/12/11 02:36 PM
05/12/11 02:36 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
but I doubt you'll see anything rediculous


don't bet on it...
Well... for China... they forcast light wind.... Bundy (AUS) wanted a class rule change for the Tornado of setting a minimum crew weight because the ISAF dropped the wind minimum from the class rule.. 5 knots true min. (class has no min weight now to match up with the wind speed minimum.)

Why.... they worried that a midget and a sailor would win the match. Class voted it down ... they were tired of being wipsawed by ISAF .... instead...the drama was over the three teams with the funky spin... (yet another black eye for multi sailing)



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: ksurfer2] #232308
05/12/11 02:38 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Granted, I'm a very fit person, but I just don't find sail trimming around cans anywhere near as physically demanding people here seem to make it out to be. Weight on the other hand, is a big factor in both results and participation/maintaining interest.

As for 'ridiculous', I think there is potential for that happening, and if it does, IOC will backlash.. but it may be solvable, and therefore, maybe nipping that problem in the bud would be a good thing...

Last edited by rexdenton; 05/12/11 02:41 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: rexdenton] #232309
05/12/11 02:46 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Weight is a huge factor...

The big selling point of the 49ner was the wings were adjusted to the crew weight. A built in normalization system. It failed.. the wings were extended to the max and the class competition ousted the sailors who did not fit. The carbon mast was added years later to extend the weight range in breeze and make it more equal.

but... these are pricey pricey changes... 49ner acceptance world wide is no better then F18's...(who tried weight normalization with different sail sizes.

Not an easy solution around though.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: Mark Schneider] #232318
05/12/11 04:41 PM
05/12/11 04:41 PM
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rhodysail Offline OP
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There is more to it than the boat. I was thinking we could talk about some of the other challenges in this thread.

Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: rhodysail] #232320
05/12/11 05:14 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Exsqueeze me, but the thread title you chose was;

"Olympic Catamaran"

Suggest your ideas on specificity regarding the 'challenges' are required if you want the thread to go a certain way!


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: rexdenton] #232323
05/12/11 06:24 PM
05/12/11 06:24 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
.......... or set arbitrary upper (healthy human being)


F that noise. It about pushing the limits in all respects. If they want to weigh 65lbs at 5'-9" then let em' same if they want to weight 350lbs at 4'-5"

Somebody else in another thread mentioned it not being about the equipment. Also a load of crap. Any of the events that require anything other than a laurel reath on their heads, the equipment comes into play in a major way.



I'm boatless.
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232342
05/13/11 07:06 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Somebody else in another thread mentioned it not being about the equipment. Also a load of crap. Any of the events that require anything other than a laurel reath on their heads, the equipment comes into play in a major way.


That was me. I prefer to look at these things in a purist sense. Level the playing field in terms of equipment, and let the best athlete win.

I know, it's not realistic, and not even true for the Olympics. That is why I have a hard time seeing sailing, bobsledding, or any other sport where you're riding a machine as a "real sport" at least for the Olympics.

Don't bother flaming, I know not many people share this view and I'm OK with that...

Mike

Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: brucat] #232347
05/13/11 08:18 AM
05/13/11 08:18 AM
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Timbo Offline
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When the Laser was fist chosen I thought, "You have got to be Sh!tt!ng ME! It's too slow, it's too simple, What The Fark are they thinking??!!"

But the more I thought about it, I realized with a Laser, you cannot go out and -buy- speed, you have to earn it, with millions of sit-ups . Being that all Lasers go about the same max speed upwind, you have to have excellent tactics and strategy, or you will be in the back row pretty quickly, with no way to recover.

There is boat handling skill involved too, obviously. Keeping it right side up going downwind and getting that thing to move upwind in big wind and waves is an art and not for the un-fit. But being as simple as it is, it does level the playing field equipment wise and put the onus on the skipper/athlete to win the races.

The only widely used catamaran that shares the same -simpleness- as the Laser, is the Hobie 16. I can see where the boat selection committee might choose that.

You and I might want to see the latest, greatest, full wing sail, curved daggers, 20 foot, carbon fiber rocket ship, but really, how many teams, world wide, can play at that level?

But a Mixed Multi? Well, the Hobie 16's have been doing that for years.


Blade F16
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Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: Timbo] #232352
05/13/11 09:49 AM
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Looking at this from the other direction for a moment...

Bobsleds are box-rule if I'm not mistaken. In the last Winter Games, there was a great deal of discussion about NASCAR (or Formula One?) designers being called up to design and build them.

Other than the fact that sailing is on the verge of being booted for other reasons, why couldn't ISAF push back at IOC and ask for a silimar approach for one of the sailing medals (cats, for example)?

Mike

Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: brucat] #232363
05/13/11 11:33 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Looking at this from the other direction for a moment...

Bobsleds are box-rule if I'm not mistaken. In the last Winter Games, there was a great deal of discussion about NASCAR (or Formula One?) designers being called up to design and build them.

Other than the fact that sailing is on the verge of being booted for other reasons, why couldn't ISAF push back at IOC and ask for a silimar approach for one of the sailing medals (cats, for example)?

Mike

Dropping the keel-boats suggests IOC assertiveness. So, what is to be 'recommended' for the catamaran, will involve the manufacturers, for whom managing and sustaining growth any popular class is very much in their self-interest. FWIW, the success of the Laser shows that designation of an 'Olympic class boat' is not always a death-knell for the class-it just requires appropriate management.

As 'equipment advantages' is strongly discouraged by the IOC, the boat which is ultimately chosen may be expected to have lots of restrictions on the design.

I say Pick one boat, one mfr, and sail it more or less 'as stock', for the Olympics.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: rexdenton] #232382
05/13/11 01:29 PM
05/13/11 01:29 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Dropping the keel-boats suggests IOC assertiveness.


IMO, the ISAF is the same as it always was. They voted a slate that increased their chances for medals and inclusion. They took the opportunity to eliminate keel boats in which they struggled to compete ... and replaced them with woman's skiff which is at least a blank slate and cheaper then a keel boat ... and with mixed multihull, another wide open field that could be cheap. I think they feel they have a better shot of catching lighting in a bottle and coming up with a strong sailor in skiffs or multihulls then fighting against the strong established countries in keel boats. ERGO... dump the keels anything else will be better. They voted their best interest.

The IOC "mandate" is a fig leaf that these countries get to hide behind. The Exec Committee who should know EXACTLY what IOC will and will not accept proposed a slate with the Keel boats. The little countries saw an opportunity to leverage the historic participation of the 470s who were to be downsized to the dreaded MIXED and and took it....Moreover, they only have to swallow ONE Mixed bastard event in Multi's and who cares about this fleet... they are desperate to return and will take anything ... Oh!.. final point, and if you don't think the other South American Countries saw an opportunity to stick it to Brazil (very strong in keel boats)... You haven't talked to many Argentines about football and Brazil... and vice versa.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: brucat] #232394
05/13/11 04:41 PM
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Seeker Offline
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This whole myth about making things fair by having a 1 design boat is so tired and bogus.
If you step back and use common sense it becomes evident that the minute you set in stone the boat/rig you predispose the advantage to a particular weight/height/strength individual….if you fall outside these “ideal parameters” one is at an instant disadvantage…assuming sailing skill is equal. So where is the fairness in that? Too bad, so sad you say while at the same time claiming fairness out of the other side of your mouth.
The reality of the matter is that if a formula class was chosen, and each sailor could pick his/her boat/rig optimized for crew weight/height/strength, the playing field would be much more even than any one design.
Trying to make “equipment” not a factor is a physical impossibility…you can be politically correct till the cows come home… but the fact that you say something is so, doesn’t change the laws of physics. Let’s be honest with ourselves here…If you are 6’-2” and 200 lbs. you want the chosen boat optimized to your advantage…if you are 165 you want a different boat/rig….every time you change the crews physical make up the advantage goes in a different direction…and everyone involved is fighting to get that direction to favor them. Let’s call a spade a spade….”fairness” has nothing at all to do with it…it’s all a scam to get a leg up.
Do runners only have the choice of one size shoe regardless of how big their feet are? Sorry you really wear a size 9 but in order to compete you have to wear a size 12…how ridiculous is that?

Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: Seeker] #232402
05/13/11 07:24 PM
05/13/11 07:24 PM
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Timbo Offline
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What I am still trying to figure out is, why are there TWO single-handed dinghys, the Laser and the Finn, and TWO double (and not mixed gender) dinghys, the 470 and the 49'r, yet no keel boats and only one cat?

Why not add a single handed cat (an A cat) along with the two up, mixed cat?


Blade F16
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Re: Olympic Catamaran [Re: Timbo] #232405
05/13/11 07:34 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
What I am still trying to figure out is, why are there TWO single-handed dinghys, the Laser and the Fin, and TWO double (and not mixed gender) dinghys, the 470 and the 49'r, yet no keel boats?

Why not add a single handed cat (an A cat) along with the two up, mixed cat?


that's what I'm saying...it still doesn't make sense.


Jake Kohl
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