Announcements
New Discussions
going downhill with my body leads to cat adaption
by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
The media IS the Democraptic party!
by H17cat. 03/04/20 06:33 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 5 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Will_R] #234117
06/27/11 03:50 PM
06/27/11 03:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Is Performance a slave to EP?

Or could they do what you suggest and spec out a sailplan and "award" a 3 year deal to a certain manufacturer who turns out the best product & service at the best price?

Since many of you buy on 3-5 year cycles, and you're not really changing the sail design, would that help keep prices in line?


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: SoggyCheetoh] #234122
06/27/11 05:39 PM
06/27/11 05:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Regarding EP, that is why all the new Nacras have Performance sails which are top notch, so this problem has already been solved.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: pitchpoledave] #234123
06/27/11 05:49 PM
06/27/11 05:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
Regarding EP, that is why all the new Nacras have Performance sails which are top notch, so this problem has already been solved.


Wrong.
Only if you are buying sails for an aluminum sticked N-20 do you get or want Performance sails, that's what they were cut for. Carbon stick 20s still get EP sails. The main reason all the new Nacras(Carbon 20s and Infusions) have Peformance sails is because Peter Vink owns Performance sails as well as a chunk of performance catamarans.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #234124
06/27/11 08:17 PM
06/27/11 08:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
ok I didn't know that. Why not ask Performance to make some sails for the carbon mast boat and then they would be class legal?

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: pitchpoledave] #234157
06/28/11 11:48 AM
06/28/11 11:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
enthusiast
BLR_0719  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
For the 20 there are now two rigs and two different cuts of sails. One rig/sail plan is newer, innovated, and faster. After all the discussions about where to go with the 20 class, in the end, it was the factory that crapped on the OD concept.

No matter what position you hold there is an incontestable unfairness that a person may show up with an entirely innovated rig and set of sails and race legally, while a person who shows up with the exact same cut of the classic sail may be protested because it was not made by the factory.

It seems the debate is no longer about how to keep the class OD, but is now more about how to get back to OD.



Last edited by BLR_0719; 06/28/11 11:49 AM.


Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: BLR_0719] #234159
06/28/11 11:51 AM
06/28/11 11:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by BLR_0719
It seems the debate is no longer about how to keep the class OD, but is now more about how to get back to OD.




I would guess the "easy" way would be to buy a sh*load of boats and let the class make up their mind.

Anyone got a few million laying in the couch cusions?


Jay

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: waterbug_wpb] #234161
06/28/11 11:57 AM
06/28/11 11:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
enthusiast
BLR_0719  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
Why not just set standard sail measurements and allow them to be made by any sail maker.

1) It allows for people to purchase new sails and "catch up" for far less money than if forced to go through EP.

2) A standard measurement prevents people from buying a bunch of different cuts to use in different conditions.



Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: BLR_0719] #234180
06/28/11 06:48 PM
06/28/11 06:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
I would wager that Performance Sails already has a N20 sail for the carbon rig..Do you want me to ask them??
Getting sails from other sailmakers is going to be a crap shoot since they have not spent the r&d on developing it. And it won't be one design.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: pitchpoledave] #234183
06/28/11 07:38 PM
06/28/11 07:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
old hand
Tornado  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
I think making a decision as to how to go forward with sails based on how N20's perform against F18's in distance racing/GT300 is wrong headed. The Gt300 is mostly close reaching. F18's do well on this point of sail against the fully cut N20 sailplans. The DPN's are setup for regualr roud the bouy W/L courses...so of course using those ratings in the 99% reachings distance race is doomed from the get go.

In my experience a well sailed N20 beats a well sailed F18 round the bouys using the current sail plans.
For distance racing perhaps a better approach is to look at other ratings systems that don't rely on course types (Texel?).



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Tornado] #234184
06/28/11 08:01 PM
06/28/11 08:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
addict
flumpmaster  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
Originally Posted by Tornado

For distance racing perhaps a better approach is to look at other ratings systems that don't rely on course types (Texel?).

Texel is semi empirical and will be tuned using a lot of buoy racing data. Same as portsmouth number really. Tybee used SCHRS when I did it. N-20s still waxed boat for boat on reaching....


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Tornado] #234193
06/29/11 08:22 AM
06/29/11 08:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline OP
veteran
TeamChums  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
The Gt300 is mostly close reaching.


Only one year (05) did we have any close reaching on the last day. Other than that, it's usually deep on day one, then beam reaching on the rest.
My point is more to get sails that are more updated than 15 year old designs. The platform is still great. We'll never be able to compete against the F18 number with the number we have. Atleast let the sails evolve.
Get that T'nader out here and do the race Mikee. Do I need to drive it out here for you? I will you know...like Miami (that was a fun trip).


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: TeamChums] #234196
06/29/11 08:40 AM
06/29/11 08:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 72
Rockledge Cay, FL
Fearless_Rider Offline
journeyman
Fearless_Rider  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 72
Rockledge Cay, FL
I haven't done any real cost comparisons...
NACRA Main = $?
Performance Main =$?
EP Main = $?
I certainly hope this thread didnt contribute to Trey selling his N20 currently on the classifieds.

[Linked Image]
anyhow, the boat can be so much fun...
Daytona Gaulden Reed Summer Sizzler!


BTW, my BBQ Rocks!
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Fearless_Rider] #234202
06/29/11 09:54 AM
06/29/11 09:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
even with the "old" sails, it's still got more potential than I could ever get out of it.. sailor skill

but I also think a slightly flatter main and spin might make it easier to handle in heavy air with more "squirt" than "heel"


Jay

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: TeamChums] #234205
06/29/11 10:35 AM
06/29/11 10:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by TeamChums
We'll never be able to compete against the F18 number with the number we have. Atleast let the sails evolve.


The P'cola boys and girls don't seem to have a problem putting it to the F18's. If you don't like getting beat by F18's then you better stay away from central FL because the odds are you'll get beat boat for boat by a 13 year old girl driving an F16 or her punk a$$ 10 year old brother.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: David Ingram] #234206
06/29/11 10:48 AM
06/29/11 10:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: TeamChums] #234208
06/29/11 12:51 PM
06/29/11 12:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
old hand
Tornado  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
So let's say you go with newly developed sails...over time this improves the racing results...leading to a lowered DPN...bingo you're back with the same corrected out time issue.

I agree the N20 should get new sails and open up to other makers...just not for the reason of trying to beat F18's in specific course situations. Never liked strict single manufacturer one-designs in principle for many of the reasons being expressed on this thread.



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Tornado] #234209
06/29/11 01:04 PM
06/29/11 01:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
I certainly hope this thread didnt contribute to Trey selling his N20 currently on the classifieds.


Was it something I said? wink


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Fearless_Rider] #234210
06/29/11 02:10 PM
06/29/11 02:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Fearless_Rider
I haven't done any real cost comparisons...
NACRA Main = $?
Performance Main =$?
EP Main = $?
I certainly hope this thread didnt contribute to Trey selling his N20 currently on the classifieds.

[Linked Image]
anyhow, the boat can be so much fun...
Daytona Gaulden Reed Summer Sizzler!


Maybe Trey contributed to the cause of this thread.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #234244
07/01/11 01:03 AM
07/01/11 01:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Quote
Whose to say that someone with deep pockets couldn't go out and go buy about 5 spinnakers and pick the best one for the event?


It's all ready been done in the Nacra 20 class. The consistency is far enough off that, that was a standard practice among the well sponsored teams in the Worrell and to a lesser extent the Tybee.


Beat me to it! In our experience the sails (not just the spins) have been so different that calling it OD is pretty iffy.


Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #234245
07/01/11 01:05 AM
07/01/11 01:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Quote
Don' see how changing the sails is going to do anything except increase costs for owners.


The square rigger sailors probably thought that for a little while too. It's progress. The sailplan is 15 years old with no development.If you don't buy new sails anyway, what difference does it make.You can't be competitive with old rags. New sails comes with being competitive, no matter who cuts them. It's part of the racing expense. You can DEFINITELY find cheaper sails than the factory EP, that perform better. So you actually save money.
The Factory attempt at a new kite is either top secret or an abysmal failure. If you would like the N-20 to be relegated to the "also ran" lake crusier with 6 people on it, then you are getting your wish.people are buying the used boats because they are relatively cheap compared to the options not because of a 1D philosophy or class control.
I've raced/owned the N-20 since 2000 when it was pushed on us for the Worrell.I think it deserves more of an effort, if it means being a one man class so be it. It's a distance racer anyway.


Quote
As a class we should build on our strenghts and our 1D philosophy, not try to chase other boats.


Seriously ,Good luck with that.

Does anybody have an idea how many regattas had Class starts for the N-20?
1 Spring Fever
2
3



WRSC Spring Regatta.


Page 5 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 34 guests, and 352 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
4alexha, Andrew_K, Maricatsailor78, gokenny, Five_Generations
8016 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
H17cat 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,375
Posts266,977
Members8,016
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1