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Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Keith] #234246
07/01/11 01:37 AM
07/01/11 01:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
So with all the sail talk, I'm not sure I'm tuned in to the prevailing word on the factory rework of the sails. Is there an honest appraisal of the new spin? Is the factory still on the timeline of producing a new main and jib next year? Inquiring minds want to know.

I've always liked the ideas of multiple manufacturers providing sails. We get to see what is getting made for the F-16s and A-Cats, and get a little jealous.

So for next year, if Tybee gets into our plans, I'm over due for a new set of rags. I've held off getting new sails this year on the promise that newer, betterer sails were coming. Are they coming? Anybody got news or a feel for how they're going to work out? Or is time to go F-18...

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Keith] #234250
07/01/11 07:42 AM
07/01/11 07:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
But wait... you joined the SMOD to save money didn't you! you can't go and buy another boat so you can have newer developed sails that's flies in the face of all that is sacred in SMOD!!! That would cost you more money!!!!
That money argument is nonsense. At some point you have to get new sails to remain competitive. Why not buy better sails that cost less?
Keep the 20 and get new sails from the sailmaker of your choice. If I've learned anything about sail development it ain't the sails that make the boat it's the sailor. If you love your boat, stick with it and have a great time. Get the sails you want and enjoy the new development ride on the Nacra 20 platform.

If the sails really do make that much of a difference then you would expect to start moving up in the fleet. Nothing, I said nothing, changes peoples minds like success.

Schurr Sails in Pensacola, FL have several new designs for the Nacra 20. I've seen them first hand and will be competing against them this weekend. I'll let you know what I think and whether i'll be buying my new set from Schurr.



Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234257
07/01/11 10:54 AM
07/01/11 10:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline OP
veteran
TeamChums  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
The spin I got from Glaser was about $1350 (I'm pretty sure). If we do Tybee next year, I'll get a Nacra class one. I guess my point is that the N20 class in the GT300 is in support of different sail makers as long as they are the same sq footage. It's a great proving ground for new sails.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234259
07/01/11 11:18 AM
07/01/11 11:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Adjust for N20 - move forward

Maybe we could get out local sailmaker to figure out what the numbers should be...

B.4. SAILS
SAIL PLAN
The sail plan comprises a mainsail, a jib and a spinnaker.
The sails shall be made of any polyester material for main and jib, and of nylon and polyester
woven only for spinnakers, and shall fit in a bag of normal dimensions.
B.4.1. MAINSAIL
B.4.1.1. The mainsail shall have a surface area of maximum 17.00m including the mast.
B.4.1.2. No part of the sail shall be above the upper mast band.
B.4.1.3. The aft head point of the mainsail shall not be above the head point.
B.4.1.4. Maximum Upper width at upper leech point 1500 mm from head point : 1290 mm
B.4.1.5. Maximum Top width : 1000 mm
B.4.1.4 & B.4.1.5: Sails with larger measurements can be measured and used until 01.01.2009.
B.4.2. JIB
It shall be possible to roll the jib around the stay. From 01.03.07, the roller reefer unit is
optional. Any Long Distance race manager or organizer wanting the use of such device for
safety reasons shall mention it in the Notice of Race, otherwise sailors may sail with the roller
reefer as an optional aid.
The leech shall not be convex.
The head shall be not more than 50mm wide.
There shall not be battens on the foot.
The ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing shall apply to jibs.
4.2.1. Two sail areas of jib are available as a function of the crew weight :
4.2.1.1. Crew categories of 115 to 150 kg :
Maximum jib sail area : 3.45m
4.2.1.2. Crew categories of more than 150 kg and crews opting for the over 140 kg changing
of category (see B.3.3) :
Maximum Jib sail area : 4.15m
4.2.2. For safety purpose, it is mandatory for the crew to be able, when racing, and in normal
position on the trampoline, to furl the jib around the stay. The crew may be asked to
demonstrate such ability at any time.
Formula 18 Class Rules updated 1st July 2007 6
4.2.3. The maximum diameter of the furled jib shall be 100 mm.
4.2.4. The maximum number of jib battens will be 4. The battens and/or the batten pockets
length shall not exceed a distance of 250 mm normal from the leech. See diagram.
From 1st March 2007, fully battened jibs are allowed.
Those may have a maximum of three battens which shall have no moving parts and be made
of glass fibre, with a maximum width of 25 mm.
4.2.5. The jib tack shall not be fixed below the highest point of the bridle wire.
4.2.6. Self tacking jib devices are allowed.
B.4.3. SPINNAKER
Two sail areas of spinnakers are permitted as a function of crew weight.
Crews of 115 kg to 150 kg :
Maximum surface area for the spinnaker : 19.00m.
Crews of more than 150 kg and crews over 140 kg changing of category (see B.3.3) :
Maximum surface area for the spinnaker : 21.00m.
Battens and stiffening devices, except textile leech lines, are not permitted.
Spinnaker retrieving systems, which may be attached to the bowsprit, are allowed, subject
they comply with the general measurement F18 rules.
Regarding the legality of carbon snuffer arrangements, a carbon ring is used on some North
American snuffers, the spinnaker pole being aluminium. Such existing snuffers has been
accepted under a grandfathering arrangement until 1 January 2007. Carbon is not permitted in
the construction of new snuffers.
B.4.4. LIMITED NUMBER OF SAILS
One single suit of sails can be used for the whole duration of an event.
B.5. MARKING
All sails measured after 01/07/2007 shall have the following details clearly marked close to the
tack point of the sail:
The year of manufacture
The loft of manufacture
The cloth type used
A unique serial number
B.5.1. MARKING OF SAILS
All the sails measured shall be marked with a colour sticker affixed near the clew on the
starboard side. The sails corresponding to different weight categories of crew weight shall be
identified by the following colour code :
Jib Mainsail Spinnaker
3.45m Green 17.00m Pink 19.00m Green
Formula 18 Class Rules updated 1st July 2007 7
4.15m Pink 17.00m Pink 21.00m Pink
The maximum permitted area shall be marked on the colour stickers.
The actual measured area shall be marked on the Measurement Certificate.
The area and the dimensions of the spinnaker (SL1, SL2, SMG, SF) shall be written in an
indelible manner near the starboard tack.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234303
07/03/11 03:40 PM
07/03/11 03:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Capt_Cardiac
But wait... you joined the SMOD to save money didn't you! you can't go and buy another boat so you can have newer developed sails that's flies in the face of all that is sacred in SMOD!!! That would cost you more money!!!!
That money argument is nonsense. At some point you have to get new sails to remain competitive. Why not buy better sails that cost less?
Keep the 20 and get new sails from the sailmaker of your choice. If I've learned anything about sail development it ain't the sails that make the boat it's the sailor. If you love your boat, stick with it and have a great time. Get the sails you want and enjoy the new development ride on the Nacra 20 platform.

If the sails really do make that much of a difference then you would expect to start moving up in the fleet. Nothing, I said nothing, changes peoples minds like success.

Schurr Sails in Pensacola, FL have several new designs for the Nacra 20. I've seen them first hand and will be competing against them this weekend. I'll let you know what I think and whether i'll be buying my new set from Schurr.



Actually, we bought the boat to sail Tybee. I don't really care about the SMOD. I think perfectly good classes have been killed by the SMOD religion. Any money argument I'll make is that I'm not going to buy outdated sails this year if the new ones are coming out next year. That money argument is not nonsense, unless you have more money than sense. I've felt all along that having multiple manufacturers in the sail game would improve things. Go back through any posts I've had on the subject. If I get to do Tybee next year (and if the N-20 is still in) I'll be looking for a new legal set, whatever that is, and if it's SMOD so be it. It's time for new rags, good sailor or no. I'm merely inquiring about the status of the new factory sails and if anybody had any skinny on them. Anybody like the spin?

As for loving the boat - the 20 is great, and it's paid for (which makes it greater). I don't love it so much that I would never consider another boat...

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Keith] #234307
07/04/11 07:27 AM
07/04/11 07:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Admittedly that was just a smart a$$ response aimed at the, "or is it time to go F-18" comment. personally i won't go F18 since i'm in the bonafide big boy club. we have all been holding on to the idea that NACRA is going to support development of the sails for the N20. i don't see it happening. I think we are on our own. I personally think an F20 box class is the way to go. You can buy a set of F18 sails for a Hobie Tiger that aren't from Hobie. You can sail them at every event accept the Hobie sponsored races. I don't have a problem with that. I'll bring out the Nacra sails for performance events.


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234309
07/04/11 07:37 AM
07/04/11 07:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Box rule works fine for us. It isn't perfect, but what is? So far we aren't having the problems you guys are, knock wood.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234322
07/04/11 12:27 PM
07/04/11 12:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
I don't have a problem with that. I'll bring out the Nacra sails for performance events.


Ah.... now the devil in the details. Somebody has to designate... This is a Performance N20 event...and this other event is Open Nacra 20.

From Keith's perspective.... the only one that matters is the possible Tybee 500. Since it was cancelled this year... Chuck will only care about which rule gets the most boats.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Mark Schneider] #234340
07/04/11 05:28 PM
07/04/11 05:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
B
BadLatitude1337 Offline
journeyman
BadLatitude1337  Offline
journeyman
B

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by TeamChums
So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory?



OK with letting us race our class legal rig?? Technological development is what moves racing forward. Perhaps Chums would like to stay in the 70's and race Hobie 14s. The only way to continue NACRA 20 development is to open the class and use a box rule like the F18s, Performance isn't going to continue to support the class. It's time to make our own class rules. Also consider that the aluminum rig costs 4K and the carbon rig costs 10K, humm.


Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: BadLatitude1337] #234341
07/04/11 05:38 PM
07/04/11 05:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
A new class is coming... stay tuned.


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234342
07/04/11 05:46 PM
07/04/11 05:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
B
BadLatitude1337 Offline
journeyman
BadLatitude1337  Offline
journeyman
B

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
Let's get together as soon as possible to work on the box rules. We'll bring our boat over soon for measurements. We can start with our sails, Schurr sails, and the EP sails and see what we come up with.


Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: BadLatitude1337] #234354
07/04/11 10:31 PM
07/04/11 10:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by BadLatitude1337
Originally Posted by TeamChums
So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory?



OK with letting us race our class legal rig?? Technological development is what moves racing forward. Perhaps Chums would like to stay in the 70's and race Hobie 14s. The only way to continue NACRA 20 development is to open the class and use a box rule like the F18s, Performance isn't going to continue to support the class. It's time to make our own class rules. Also consider that the aluminum rig costs 4K and the carbon rig costs 10K, humm.


I think you've missed Chum's point. How about read the whole thread before you spout off. He's ( as am I) for advancement,without our collective noses as well as walletts up the factory's a$$. Your pissin' up the wrong rope.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #234365
07/05/11 09:04 AM
07/05/11 09:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Now, I just might get one of the several N20's in my area after all!

How about a F20 event, similiar to the F18's, platform (N6.0, H20, Myst?, etc.) all have to fit a set of box rules.

Ya know, The link is here in the 20 ft forum about this, started by my freind Mike N., in TX.

Here is the link to the thread in the F20 forum:
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=206153#Post206153

PS- I happened to be in Toronto, during the Can F18's last year. Misha won it on a local Tiger, with local crew(I think), (he did bring a set of his own sails). Did he win b/c of the sials? They had Major wind, to almost no wind, and he still won it. Was it his sails? I didn't think so.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Todd_Sails] #234369
07/05/11 09:50 AM
07/05/11 09:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
my N20 went to Canada. Is it available? Sails #279 and #501 wouldn't mind getting that workhorse back and some crew to sail it..


Jay

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Todd_Sails] #234370
07/05/11 09:51 AM
07/05/11 09:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Mischa's crew was Kevin Stittle, 4th in China on the Tornado, 2nd at the Tornado worlds..so his crew was very very good. And he brought his own sails and daggers.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: pitchpoledave] #234379
07/05/11 10:19 AM
07/05/11 10:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
Mischa's crew was Kevin Stittle, 4th in China on the Tornado, 2nd at the Tornado worlds..so his crew was very very good. And he brought his own sails and daggers.


It was the F'in daggers... I KNEW IT!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: David Ingram] #234380
07/05/11 10:26 AM
07/05/11 10:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
B
BadLatitude1337 Offline
journeyman
BadLatitude1337  Offline
journeyman
B

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
I did not miss the point at all!!! He said (So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory? )
Im all for opening that class and letting anyone cut the sails. But I will also keep buying PC parts until there is a new class rule. So trying say I can or cant sail with a class legal rig is just ludicrous!!!!
[u][/u]

Last edited by BadLatitude1337; 07/05/11 10:50 AM.

Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: pitchpoledave] #234382
07/05/11 10:31 AM
07/05/11 10:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Goclaw Offline
journeyman
Goclaw  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
So, I purchased a new suite of Schurr Sails (Main and Jib)just over a month ago for my 2001 I20 and I love them. Hunter, Mark Smith and Burt Rice Jr. have been tweaking the design for several years and it seems to have paid off. I am no rock star. In fact, I have been a sailor for less than 10 years. I am however a competitive son of a bitch and have been known to be on the north end of the fleet on rare ocassion.

I have now sailed the new rags in two regattas (Slip to Ship and Horn Island Hop) and I am pleased. The boat accelerates much better and is a monster on a reach. On the spin run, even with a stock 2 year old EP spin, the new main is driving the apparent wind and permitting me to sail deeper and faster than most of the fleet. For me to finish just behind Chalie Trinque (N20 Aluminum) and Andy Humphries (C2 F18)on Race 3 (20 miles all points of sail) tells me that I made the right choice especially given that I am really just starting to learn the sails.

I have no political agenda but I can observe that the "in fighting" is destructive to the class. I am very interested in creating a fair F20 class association much like Rick chose to do with the Waves. I wil work with Captain Cardiac and other interested souls to create a fair, flexible and transparant F class to continue to develop the fleet.

Ken Altman
"Kani Basami" N20
"Baby B" H.Wave

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: BadLatitude1337] #234383
07/05/11 10:37 AM
07/05/11 10:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Goclaw Offline
journeyman
Goclaw  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Amen..."we didn't start the fire..." the military used up all the carbon fiber in the world....or so I heard. I don't care if the advancements come from Europe (aluminum wing mast), the US or NZ. If the N20 class wants to remain competitive, we must be flexible. However, I suspect that you two could still beat half of the fleet on an AquaCat with 30 year old sails.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: BadLatitude1337] #234388
07/05/11 11:00 AM
07/05/11 11:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by BadLatitude1337
I did not miss the point at all!!! He said (So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory? )
Im all for opening that class and letting anyone cut the sails. But I will also keep buying PC parts until there is a new class rule. So trying say I can or cant sail with a class legal rig is just ludicrous!!!!


I think he was just pointing out the differences that are already present in the class. I believe you have the only N-20 like yours(alu mast ,perf.sails) correct me if I'm wrong, so unfortunately that gets used as an example of the inconsistencies in the supposed SMOD N-20 class.I don't think he's trying to keep you from racing it. As I see it you're completely 100% legit. I just think all the variations are BS for a SMOD class.It either is or it isn't. I also think pointing out the aluminum mast as an advancement, when it was brought forth so the factory could save a buck and wouldn't have to source,ship, and stock the carbon extrusion is misinformation.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
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