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Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234929
07/17/11 11:27 PM
07/17/11 11:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 4
M
mrooke Offline
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mrooke  Offline
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Posts: 4
I am relatively new to sailing, have owned my Wave now for 6 weeks, and been having a blast sailing it on the weekends in Texas at Lake Buchanan and the Texas City Dike. I have seen the postings with the helpful performance recommendations on mast rake and keeping your weight forward. Obviously I am a recreational sailor gaining experience at this point, and donít want to do anything to preclude racing in the future.

I would like to know what I should add next to my Wave to get more performance. Many of the postings from 2008 recommend improving sail shape by adding a traveller and later postings from 2011 recommend adding one of the new, fuller, high-tech sails. However, it seems to me that those already using a high-tech sail report neglible performance gains from a traveller. If so, then perhaps I should just go ahead and get a fuller high-tech sail and not waste money on a traveller.

So my question is: which option provides the highest raw performance on a Wave for a 200 lb. sailor?
a) adding a traveller to a standard Hobie sail (~$200)
b) adding a fuller high-tech sail without a traveller (e.g., Calvert dacron
sail costs ~$600)

Is it worth adding both a traveller and a fuller high-tech sail to a Wave at a later point?

Thanks for any help.

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Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: mrooke] #234931
07/18/11 09:07 AM
07/18/11 09:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
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IndyWave  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
The best thing you can do is save your money and go sailing!

Time on the water, getting the feel of response to changing conditions, practice tacking and mark-rounding, practice starts, etc... All those will have more dramatic effects on performance than a traveller or new sail.

Actually, "high tech" sails are legal under IWCA rules, but are not allowed in HCANA races; and travellers are not allowed in racing by either class association. So it depends on whom you plan to race against.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: IndyWave] #234951
07/19/11 01:20 PM
07/19/11 01:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Good advice. And a traveler will offer nothing. You would not notice any significant speed increase with a high tech sail. It would only show up when racing othere boats.
If you want a lot more speed, try the Hooter.
http://www.catsailor.com/waves/superwave_overall.html
I was able to beat most H16s and some H18s in a distance race.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234955
07/19/11 03:02 PM
07/19/11 03:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline
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NorthernWave  Offline
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Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
Hi everyone. I'm one of the people Big Whoop races with. I'm can vouch for the fact that no-one on the Ottawa River has more cat sailing experience or knowledge of local (Voodoo) wind conditions than Big Whoop. He is dangerous man to be near at the start line. I sail with a standard Hobie mainsail and easy-lock rudders. I use a 30" tiller extension and am sure it is one of the reasons I seem to finish ahead. I (along with Big Whoop) attended Madcatter this year and managed to finish 4th (my first experience racing a Wave). My thoughts on the tiller extension are that since all future Waves will come with easy-lock rudders, if it is truly the desire to grow the number of Wave racers, something must be done to close the competitive advantage of those using the older rudder system. If nothing is done, eventually I suspect, Wave racing will become the domain of lightweight sailors with enough cash to buy competitive rudder systems and go-fast sails. So....I have a couple of of suggestions:

1) Allow easy-lock rudder users to have tiller extensions

2) Allow the use the bungee cord system I read about on this forum for easy-lock rudder users

3) Set up a handicap system for easy-lock rudder systems (I really hate this idea)

BTW Mimi, we had an *awesome* time at Madcatter and I suspect there will be at least 3 Waves from LDSC at next year's regatta.

NorthernWave


Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: NorthernWave] #234995
07/20/11 10:13 AM
07/20/11 10:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
This is in response to the following quote: "Wave racing will become the domain of lightweight sailors with enough cash to buy competitive rudder systems and go-fast sails".

The sail has to be replaced sooner or later - sooner if you sail and practice often. So buying a new sail to race with really does not add to the cost - it may only accelerate what you would spend eventually anyway. Buying a new sail that can be made to your specifications (fuller for heavier; flatter for lighter sailor weights) also helps to even the competition and provides more owner satisfaction. The sail still has to measure in so that it is even in that regard but shaping the sail to individual needs can be a big help and is money much better spent than being forced to buy whatever sail that Hobie happens to have this year (yes, it changes a lot from year to year, based on their desires, not yours). Having a couple sails, in any case, is always a good plan since it is expensive to travel and being out of a regatta after a sail is damaged is no fun. It also allows you to use one just for racing so that it stays in good shape and having one just for fun and not worrying about kids or newbies (or even you) being rough on it.

As for the rudders, it just highlights why the IWCA exists. Hobie just made that change when and as it suited them (no owner involvement). The other reason, btw, is that it is THE ONLY Hobie Wave class association, something that seems to get easily overlooked.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235004
07/20/11 12:58 PM
07/20/11 12:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline
stranger
NorthernWave  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
I appreciate what you have to say about the sails, and I will no doubt be needing a new one in the future. Calvert or North seems like the way to go.

Nevertheless, the main point I was trying to raise is that compared to the easy-lock system, older rudder systems have a substantial built-in "tiller extension". My experience is that the difference is not so important going downwind, but it is significant going upwind. Since it seems unlikely that Hobie will be going back to older rudders, I would like to see consideration given to leveling the competitive advantage enjoyed by those who use the older rudder systems. I haven't priced out a new "older system" from Hobie, but I suspect it would be prohibitively expensive for me.

Taking the long view, how likely is it that new Wave sailors will want to race in regattas if they feel their factory equipped boat puts them at a significant disadvantage?

Without IWCA Wave racing would probably not exist in any meaningful way. Is the organization flexible enough to deal with unexpected challenges provided by Hobie in order to keep growing the class?





Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: NorthernWave] #235016
07/20/11 08:48 PM
07/20/11 08:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
I think it is. I suggest you write the rule addition / change that you want and submit it to this forum for comment. That should start the necessary conversation.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235065
07/22/11 07:59 AM
07/22/11 07:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline
stranger
NorthernWave  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
Thanks Mike. I'll have something up within a week. My objective is not to upset the established racing community. I just want to make regatta racing more competitive for those of us with newer Waves and limited resources.


Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: NorthernWave] #235068
07/22/11 08:45 AM
07/22/11 08:45 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



What does any of this mean? "As for the rudders, it just highlights why the IWCA exists. Hobie just made that change when and as it suited them (no owner involvement). The other reason, btw, is that it is THE ONLY Hobie Wave class association, something that seems to get easily overlooked" What are you talking about? And how the hell would you know anything about how/why HCA changed their rudder policy?? No owner involvement? You know this for sure? Really?
And what does this mean: "Without IWCA Wave racing would probably not exist in any meaningful way. Is the organization flexible enough to deal with unexpected challenges provided by Hobie in order to keep growing the class?" Unexpected challenges provided by Hobie? What?
No meaningful way.......define that.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235070
07/22/11 09:08 AM
07/22/11 09:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
I think these sideways remarks are inappropriate and devisive and am surprised that there is still ill feeling toward HCA and Hobie Cat from old guard IWCA folks.

The Wave is what it is and Hobie Cat has every right to make it any way they want to.


It is up to us, the racers to manange our class fairly, whether it be HCA or HCA-NA.

We all agree that the two different rudder systems create a problem. It makes sense to me to permit a compensating device; either an extended tiller arm or tiller extension.

In fact, Rick did give me verbal permission to extend my arms when I first got my boat, but I just bit the bullet and got the whole older system.

I think a minimum crew weight is also needed and I don't buy the reasoning that no tiller extension helps the fat guys.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mugrace72] #235077
07/22/11 10:55 AM
07/22/11 10:55 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



I don't buy it either.
The ezloc rudders can be updated to accomodate the EPOs (kind of a pain in the butt, but Jeremy proved it can be done) and there is nothing written anywhere that says you can't match the arm lenght to that of the original rudders.
I just don't understand the negativity toward the HCA-NA from this guy, when we've done nothing but try like hell to be as accomodating at our events (regarding equipment) as we possibly can. Even totally ignoring our written rules for the MWE events in florida. And as far as meaningful Wave sailing goes, we had 12 boats at the mini mega. NOt alot of the HCA racers (16s, 20s etc....) are very big fans of the wave so I was pretty happy to get that many.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235078
07/22/11 11:41 AM
07/22/11 11:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by xanderwess

I just don't understand the negativity toward the HCA-NA from this guy, when we've done nothing but try like hell to be as accomodating at our events (regarding equipment) as we possibly can. Even totally ignoring our written rules for the MWE events in florida. And as far as meaningful Wave sailing goes, we had 12 boats at the mini mega. NOt alot of the HCA racers (16s, 20s etc....) are very big fans of the wave so I was pretty happy to get that many.


Chris,

I don't know why Mike is so negative, but he does not speak for the majority of the Wave sailors that I interact with. We are very appreciative about the way HCA-NA has reached out under your leadership.

Keep up the great job!


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235081
07/22/11 12:21 PM
07/22/11 12:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Well, Chris, I was not asked about the rudder change, and I am an owner. That's one way I know and the only opinion I have heard about the rudder changes are negative, as recently expressed on this forum. So let's put your resentment to my comments to the test. Do you know of any owners that Hobie consulted with before making the rudder change?

Here is another test since Chris wants to know (I feel like the damage is already done, so who cares why they did what, as Jack correctly points out, they had every right to do, no matter how owners felt about it): Anyone who was consulted by Hobie before they changed the rudders, let us hear from you on this forum.


Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235096
07/22/11 02:31 PM
07/22/11 02:31 PM

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xanderwess
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xanderwess
Unregistered
X



They (the manufacturer) took a 'pleasure' boat and made more efficient to work, use and SELL to the masses. The 'Racers' (which there are really not many of relatively speaking) had to suffer a bit, but that's just the way it goes. Next time a the factory needs to make a decision on making things easier for kids/regular joe sailors to use and see if they can make a better buck on, I'll give them your email so they can check with you first.
The 'change' we were (I thought) speaking of was the FACT that the HCA just changed the Wave Rules (HCA Wave Rules) to allow for the 'upgrade' of the std. rudder to the High Performance blade. with that, a number of owners were asked their opinion. I know this because I was the one that asked. You got a burr in your saddle buddy and I don't who put it there, but it sure as hell wasn't the HCA or me.

I love you too Jack!

Last edited by xanderwess; 07/22/11 02:35 PM.
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235106
07/22/11 06:49 PM
07/22/11 06:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by xanderwess
Next time a the factory needs to make a decision on making things easier for kids/regular joe sailors to use and see if they can make a better buck on, I'll give them your email so they can check with you first.


Chris,

Please forward Mike's info on to Hobie's R&R department so they can keep him in the loop on any planned product changes.

I have spoken with several other Wave racers today and none of us want Hobie to contact us about such things.

I for one want to be on the "no call" list. cool


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235132
07/23/11 10:15 AM
07/23/11 10:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline
stranger
NorthernWave  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
First of all, I understand why Hobie made the rudder change. It is no doubt less expensive and therefore helps keep the price of boats down and the number of boats sold up. The more Waves there are, the happier I am. The EZ LOCs function just fine and the assembly is as tough as nails.

Secondly, modifying the length of the tiller arm on an EZ LOC rudder assembly would be a violation of Rules 2 and 6.

Again, I have NO criticism of the IWCA. Without Rick White and his efforts, I stand by my assertion that Wave racing would not likely exist at its current level of activity.

BTW, I purchased my first Wave in 1999. My current Wave is a 2008 model.


Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235136
07/23/11 11:53 AM
07/23/11 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Chris, I have neither a burr nor a saddle. I made two statements of fact that apparently upset you and Jack that caused Jack to label them as inappropiate and divisive. One was the rudder statement that you misread and that has been settled. The other one was that IWCA is the only Hobie Wave Class Association. I think that stating facts is neither divisive nor inappropriate and are not "side" issues a Jack suggested because they were made as part of a conversation discussing rudder/tiller changes made by Hobie that cause racing problems. Since I recommended a rules change proposal be submitted, both of my comments were exactly on topic. Why it has bothered you two so much is all that needs to be explained.

Apparently both of you also missed my comment where I agreed with Jack that Hobie has every right to change the Wave as they see fit so I don't expect Hobie to contact me for further changes to the Wave.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235142
07/23/11 07:33 PM
07/23/11 07:33 PM

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xanderwess
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xanderwess
Unregistered
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Northern Wave: I just looked at IHCA rules and 1.2 says you can't modify the rudder assemply or rudders except for min. filing. I think that is bs and am going to pose the question to our rules people. IF the Wave has 2 rudder systems and two distinct lenghts on the arms, then they should at the very least be able to modify them so that they are equal distance (from the mast I guess) so that fatties and skinnys alike have similar advantage. I'll work on that.
Mike: If you didn't sound like you were being negative towards HCA, I wouldn't have thought to comment, but since you did sound negative, I took defense (as I always will)
We have worked pretty friggin' hard to get a some situations put together where the minute number of Wave sailor in the world can get together and get our wave on. I don't like anyone rocking that boat.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235201
07/25/11 04:58 PM
07/25/11 04:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
I'd say allow a hiking stick on either version. You cannot lengthen tiller arms on an EZ Loc system. That will not work. The tiller crossbar has to be aft of the sail clew to raise the rudders.

Next... maybe dis-allow raising one rudder when sailing. Most of the difference solved. Ez Loc rudders sail pretty much the same as do aluminum systems with blades down... raising one blade is the biggest difference for racing. The difference in Ackerman effect is minimal. EZ Loc systems do not work well with one blade up. The tiller arm up/down geometry causes issues.

Last... why did we change to EZ Loc to begin with? This was not cost driven. This was to simplify raising and lowering rudders period... which was a big problem for the majority of users. This has been a HUGE success. No more heavy weather helm from an incorrectly locked down rudder, no stuck cams, no sandy plunger lubricant. It's a great system. Yes, we had to move the tiller crossbar aft and remove the Ackerman to make it work, but well worth the changes.

Lastly... we reserve the right to make changes to the Wave and Getaway as we please. No questions would be asked of racers for approval. These are our bread and butter entry level boats... these are not stuck in one design slots. They are simply meant to be fun and easy to sail. Which they certainly are.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: mmiller] #235203
07/25/11 06:54 PM
07/25/11 06:54 PM

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xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



I want to change my vote.
Tiller ext. is logical. I needed to have it explained to me as the only $$ effective and practical way to level the playing field.
Carry on.
cw

Last edited by xanderwess; 07/25/11 07:00 PM.
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