Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
F20na Box Rule Set Posted #234958
07/19/11 03:52 PM
07/19/11 03:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline OP
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
All
I've posted the F20na Box Rule Set on the F20 Forum. Check it out and get your 20's ready to race. Its a new dawn for the big boats. Read the Box Rule and lets have some discussion.

CC


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234960
07/19/11 04:05 PM
07/19/11 04:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
I thought the discussion we have been having for the last couple of years has been about sail development and reviving the N20 class.

What the N20 class needs is an immunization shot in the arm, not a gun shot to the head.

320#?? no minimum crew weight?? are you kidding?? That box rule is the eulogy for the N20.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: P.M.] #234964
07/19/11 06:45 PM
07/19/11 06:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
The idea 5 to 10 years ago was to create a formula that could support a race circuit with H20's, N6.0's N20's and Mystere 6.0's at the foundation. The lower weight would drive development over time... Now, The only race boats that really survive in any numbers from that era are the N20's. The world has changed.. the development nature of the rule formula will fail in 2011 with the new wide carbon 20's on the market. I would narrow the focus of the rule.

The bottom line as I see it. ... you are trying to revive a class that would be somewhat like the F18's.. (8.5 beam = user friendly) but with a hull shape and power for crews... 380 and up. (Set the min crew weight to the level you need)

The state of the art niche is now owned by the N20c and the other carbon boats. A narrow boat will never be as efficient at 20 feet. You simply can't compete.

I would suggest an open sailmaker rule so that existing N20 owners can purchase what sails they want so long as they measure into the existing sail plan.

If you want to include some development (to keep things interesting over time)... lower the boat weight by 20 lbs to 400 lbs and allow new foils and any mast of the same dimensions as the alu and existing carbon sticks.

If the market for this boat.. ie teams 360 and up exists and thrives.. ... the F18 builders could just blow up their F18 hull shape to the 20 size (just like the origin of the N20). The class would then grow like the F18's with demand calling forth new designs.

A conservative approach would be to do the sailmaker changes in year one.... Race your circuit. Measure the adoption of the new sailmakers at the end. Re poll the fleet if they want changes in foils.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: P.M.] #234967
07/19/11 07:09 PM
07/19/11 07:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline OP
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
the discussion over the last years has been all over the map with no action. protecting a single platform is myopic and doomed to fail and there are far too many examples of this. This class is aimed at ALL of the 20 foot boats and those to come. The F20c is a wide beam boat that will not likely be accepted by the masses for both the convenience factor and the sheer cost of the new animal. This class will continue to produce boats that are cheaper and easier to transport, etc. This box rule significantly increases the value of the N20s until a better platform comes along. All formula classes have evolution at their very heart. This class is no different except there is much more latitude to develop. The N20 has many good years ahead of it. No one is rushing to build an F20na to the limits of its specs as far as i know but i promise you i'll be looking for it.


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234969
07/19/11 07:17 PM
07/19/11 07:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Wow!!! Shades of Carl R

Good luck with your vision...
No matter what... kudo's for taking a step.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Mark Schneider] #234971
07/19/11 07:27 PM
07/19/11 07:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline OP
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
i've never met him but Carl is my hero!!!


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Mark Schneider] #234972
07/19/11 07:28 PM
07/19/11 07:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
B
BadLatitude1337 Offline
journeyman
BadLatitude1337  Offline
journeyman
B

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
There have been several of us working on this for the past 3 or 4 weeks.
We have put the min boat weight at 320 because there is no reason with the carbon technology that we have today for any 20 foot cat to weigh 400 pounds. There are lots of places weight can be cut. I intend to make carbon rudders and daggers for my 20. Also I will be splicing spectra traps. I think with just these small changes our n20 will be down to around 380-390 pounds.
As far as crew weight goes light is not always better. Iíll use myself as an example. When Joe and I sailed together we did just fine at a weight of 460. If we had been light on all those windy days we would have lost our butts. I think most crew weights will stay the same.
I would like to see the F20NA class grow to be like the F18 class. Who cares who makes the sails, mast or any other part of the boat. I would like to see people build their own carbon 20 foot cat under these rules.
I think that the Nacra 20 will remain the boat to beat for years to come!!! With the box rule everyone will have the same size sails but will be free to play with sail cut/design.
I believe that with the adoption of this class we will see more 20 foot cats on the starting line. At any given regatta there are 5 or 6 Nacra20ís on the starting line. With this class I hope to see 20 or 30 boats.
Trust me, we know that there will be lots of questions. Please feel free to email me and ask anything you like. (Charlie Trinque) sailerpt@gmail.com


Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: BadLatitude1337] #234975
07/19/11 07:55 PM
07/19/11 07:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
So... you think that a carbon 20 at 8'6 inches wide that weighs 100 lbs less then a N20 will be a fair race even up?

This kind of racing will keep the rank and file N20' owners showing up for the regional schedule and buying sails??

A set of F18 beams and a new tramp will convert a New Nacra 20C into your formula boat.... Will you race that misbegotten beast even up with your N20?.. (Can we arrange a small wager)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: BadLatitude1337] #234976
07/19/11 08:00 PM
07/19/11 08:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I had the pleasure of sailing a Tybee500 with Carl at the helm. It was one of my most memorable Tybee's. We conversed little but raced hard. It was cool in it's own way.

I think there is an opportunity here for the 20 but the width of the "niche" that this boat fits in the current market is not really defined. It's going to take some real vision to keep the boat class popular and active. There are some real conflicts showing in the opinions of the direction of the class (but this is a good start toward something for sure).

Having been a Nacra 6.0 owner/sailor, N20 owner/sailor and F18 owner/sailor, there are some takeaways I think we can learn from history. There are a few key factors to look at when developing this rule and a couple of teetering points that need to be decided:

1) Is the point to help the N20 survive or create a new formula class? Creating a new formula class will take an incredible amount of energy and dedication of a few people who can work the political strings and interest of the manufacturers and build interest within the sailors. Building a formula rule can be kind'a a chicken (manufacturers) or egg (sailors) situation - but you can't rely on it to be born from either one. You have to be the dog who doesn't care about chickens or eggs other than the fact they both taste great. Shear enthusiasm and influence on a large scale are required make it happen. To make the 20 "survive" is a completely different issue and I believe to two goals are mutually exclusive...you can't have both.

2) new boats. Without people buying new boats, the class is on a path to death. period. end of story. The Nacra 20 has an issue with the cost of boats, cost of replacement parts, and people willing to invest in the class. Until this is dealt with, sustaining or growing the class will not be possible. A formula rule with other manufacturers may help but you have to have the faith of the manufacturers and the sailors simultaneously to make it happen. Without support from both it won't happen formula style.

If the point is to make the Nacra 20 survive in it's current form, cost has to be dealt with, the rules need to be defined, an organizing body in place, and most importantly the needs and wishes of people with the means to purchase new boats need to be figured out and catered to.

If the idea is to honestly start a formula 20 class, I would consult with some of the founders of F18 in Europe and find the guys that started the F20 thing several years ago in Europe (and Carl) and sap them for every bit of insight and wisdom regarding how to get started (those folks are actually pretty accessible).



Jake Kohl
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Jake] #234980
07/19/11 08:48 PM
07/19/11 08:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
B
BadLatitude1337 Offline
journeyman
BadLatitude1337  Offline
journeyman
B

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
The Nacra20 is just a good starting point for this class. I don't think you will see people building boats to this formula spec for years. But over time yes people will build new boats. And I don't see a reason to have 400 pound boats. The nacra20 is an awesome boat and I love mine, but at the same time I see the numbers of n20's out there dropping off. Unless we all want to spend 35k on an f20c or move to 18 foot boats then we need an f20na class. I believe it will also keep the n20 alive for a few more years.


Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: BadLatitude1337] #234981
07/20/11 12:49 AM
07/20/11 12:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Mark
The inter20 was designed and built BEFORE the inter 18


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: TEAMVMG] #234984
07/20/11 08:44 AM
07/20/11 08:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
I don't think so. My understanding was that Nacra built the M and M designed inter 18 for the EU for the F18 class that was just starting to grow in popularity (Dart Hawks and Hobie Tigers). They then decided to sell the boat in the USA but the small sailplan was just boring ... So.. just like they souped up the Nacra 6.o to the 6.0 NA to trump the 5.8... they added the Omohundro carbon stick and tried to spice the boat up to convince the Nacra 5.8 NA sailors to flip. This did not work. (Why go smaller) As the story goes... Larry Hartack took a sawsall to the inter 18 bows... added two feet and bingo... the MandM design was now the Nacra Inter20 and the first production cat with a carbon mast. The US market went for the Nacra Inter20 and passed on the F18. Eventually Hobie figured out a way to sell boats without comptips in NA and started selling the Tiger... Nacra followed with the F18 and they grandfathered the small number of inter 18's with carbon sticks into the dealer created NAF18 class. Eventually that organization reformed to be fully compliant with the internationl F18 class.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234985
07/20/11 08:53 AM
07/20/11 08:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline OP
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
The first F20na event is scheduled to take place at Juana's Good Time Regatta September 10-11, 2011.

More regattas are in the work for this fall. Stay tuned and dust off your 20's and come out to support something at its grass roots.

Many people look at a new initiative and start shooting holes in it. Look years down the road and realize it for what an amazing class it can be.


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234987
07/20/11 09:30 AM
07/20/11 09:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
What's it rate?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: David Ingram] #234988
07/20/11 09:33 AM
07/20/11 09:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 126
southern Ontario
Twister Offline
member
Twister  Offline
member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 126
southern Ontario
Just curious but what the difference among ideal crew weights for the F18, N20, and F20-Carbon?


Ryan
Dart 18 #4860
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: David Ingram] #234996
07/20/11 10:37 AM
07/20/11 10:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline OP
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
rhetorical question huh? i'll bite. We need to start racing before we can get a rating. The F20na is late to the party but i think there is plenty of food and we'll bring a fresh keg to keep everyone happy.


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #234998
07/20/11 11:06 AM
07/20/11 11:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
It was not rhetorical. If you want to be scored and you want to run a different configuration than what the N20 OD is rated you'll need to get a provisional number from the DPN committee or apply all the applicable mods, if there isn't a mod for what you want to do then you aint legal. Now if the F20na isn't going to be scored with the other party goers and all the N20's in attendance are cool with it then go nuts...

As far as data points go only bouy races are used by DPN.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: David Ingram] #234999
07/20/11 11:44 AM
07/20/11 11:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Your class rules as published will make it difficult to get a PN rating as a group of boats... eg the F20NA class. You will be forced to calculate each boat individually because your class rule says min boat weight 320... which would lower your rating in PN, Texel or SCHRS and the owners would think this unfair since their boat actually weighs 420.

So that would force you to use the tables individually which is a PIA for all concerned.

You can create any class you want for the PN tables Historically boats like the CFR 20 and Poison Oak were one offs that had a rating in the table and so you can create a class for min boat weight of 390 and sail area equal to the existing N20 and create a descriptive name and go for it.. That would swallow all of the N20s and any of the customized N20's in the race. The provisional number would be phrfd to be a bit faster then the current N20. All you should need is the basic measurement limits and a letter requesting a provisional rating. Should take a week or so. sailors register and say they comply with the PN rating rule.

Alternatively, race under SHCRS or TEXEL and use the calculators to get your individual rating. Until the boat changes weight... all the N20 look a likes would rate the same.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Mark Schneider] #235001
07/20/11 12:21 PM
07/20/11 12:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Goclaw Offline
journeyman
Goclaw  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Very interesting and largely productive comments and suggestions. "Provisionally", until we get a rating, I think that Portsmouth adjustments can deal with most of the issues for the Juannas Regatta or other mixed regattas. While not ideal, the goal is to give the power back to the sailors rather than SMOD especially given the great varieties even within what is considered a one design class. The idea in using an overall sail area will hopefully permit the sailors and builders to experiment with different configurations and designs to improve the 20' platform whether it is an N20, N6.0 or other grandfathered platforms. I have no doubt that it will be easy to shoot holes into this initial plan. Understandd however that we are aiming for an Open Class that can harbour innovation. While every boat may not be equal (some being more equal than others), each boat has the opportunity to be equal.

Keep you constructive suggestions coming.

Thanks,

Ken Altman
Commodore Ocean Springs Yacht Club
"Kani Basami" N20
"Baby B" Hobie Wave

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Goclaw] #235002
07/20/11 12:41 PM
07/20/11 12:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Understandd however that we are aiming for an Open Class that can harbour innovation. While every boat may not be equal (some being more equal than others), each boat has the opportunity to be equal.


This statement of your intention makes the most sense after looking at your rules.

I suggest you change the name from Formula 20,, to Open 20 or Development 20, or Level rated 20.

In the cat world... Formula has been defined by the Formula 18 class. The term Formula references a fairly tight set of rules (if not an actual formula) and does not quite match your intention (Open Class?) in my opinion. Just one of those suggestions....

(I also think you should try an interim entry in the PN tables... It makes life A Lot easier for scorekeepers using wind speed ratings.)


crac.sailregattas.com
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 37 guests, and 237 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
diveboy, Carlos_Mata_Virgem, bfriendly, BlairC, Skahahobie
8093 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,385
Posts267,020
Members8,093
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1