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Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #235082
07/22/11 01:25 PM
07/22/11 01:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Goclaw Offline
journeyman
Goclaw  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
You are not G-d? You are a catamaran sailor, and a captain.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Mlcreek] #235083
07/22/11 01:28 PM
07/22/11 01:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Mlcreek
Jay,
You fixing to by another boat?

Forrest


Short answer: yes. Long answer:
(1) place to put it (problem)
(2) reasonable price (check)
(3) permission from momma (pending)


Jay

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Goclaw] #235084
07/22/11 01:31 PM
07/22/11 01:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Goclaw Offline
journeyman
Goclaw  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
I still would like to discuss whether we need to consider the minimum weight issue and the minimum crew weight issue.

Also, I personally like the idea of opening the class to innovation. For instance, if you want carbon boards, go for it. If you would like to try to retrofit some bannana boards, make it happen.

While the sail plan is the launching point for this class, making it an Open class should drive interest and development.

Ken Altman
Commodore OSYC
"Kani Basami" N20

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Goclaw] #235202
07/25/11 07:35 PM
07/25/11 07:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
B
BadLatitude1337 Offline
journeyman
BadLatitude1337  Offline
journeyman
B

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
Well there was some good work done this week as far as sail measurements go. Kevin Rajida and hunter from schurr sails get all the credit for this. Kevin and hunter have been working on getting all the data they can over the last few days.

Last edited by BadLatitude1337; 07/25/11 07:35 PM.

Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: BadLatitude1337] #235222
07/26/11 09:12 AM
07/26/11 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Should we have a sail measuring party here at our club? Was thinking of doing this anyways, since one of our members will be contacting a local sail maker this week for a new sail...

The unraveling has begun...

Last edited by Chris9; 07/26/11 09:57 AM.

Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: BadLatitude1337] #235224
07/26/11 09:24 AM
07/26/11 09:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
How are you guys measuring the sails? There are a lot of different ways to skin that cat. The F18 rule is pretty detailed but works well to control the "creativity" some people seem to find with sail measurement systems. Be glad to help with some insight.


Jake Kohl
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Jake] #235225
07/26/11 09:27 AM
07/26/11 09:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Are you going to post the measurements somewhere for all to see and use or is this just a Schurr thing?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Jake] #235227
07/26/11 09:41 AM
07/26/11 09:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
The F18 rule is pretty detailed but works well to control the "creativity" some people seem to find with sail measurement systems.


They seem to want a lot of development. 320 lb boat weight and a max sail area of xxx for the sail plan.

I would think any standard method used by sail makers would work.

I would love to hear how the sailmakers will manage the super stiff telephone pole that is the N20 carbon stick. Can you get the range needed without pulling the sail apart in a year.

Perhaps one of the load path sail cloths could let you bend the mast enough.

If you guys get any measurements on the bend of the sticks... it would be interesting to compare with the alu N20 stick and the F18HT riba sticks or the Tornado carbon stick.

Always looking to learn something.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #235229
07/26/11 10:58 AM
07/26/11 10:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
...a Schurr thing?


Nice! Couldn't you guys just borrow someone elses system and plug in your own numbers?

Last edited by pgp; 07/26/11 11:02 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #235238
07/26/11 02:38 PM
07/26/11 02:38 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
member
KevinRejda  Offline
member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Are you going to post the measurements somewhere for all to see and use or is this just a Schurr thing?


We (Hunter Riddle and I) have been using the F16 documents to measure the sails. This was what Hunter used when he and Mark Smith started developing new sails. As we get the rules for the new class firmed up we will post the measurement system. The idea is not to have to measure every sail but to give sailmakers the ability to measure and mark sails with the size. I will also publish what we find measuring existing EP sails as well as the one's Hunter has built. I have measurements for the Europe sails that Charlie Trinque has as well as several sets from the 1000 series (Alter Cup boats from 2006). Hope to get hold of an older one that Charlie Harp has soon (USA496) just for comparison.


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: KevinRejda] #235239
07/26/11 02:43 PM
07/26/11 02:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Kevin, do not forget to include the mast in the sail area measurements. Since Charlie has the wing mast and everyone else has the carbon stick it makes a significant difference.

Dave


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: David Ingram] #235241
07/26/11 02:47 PM
07/26/11 02:47 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
member
KevinRejda  Offline
member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Kevin, do not forget to include the mast in the sail area measurements. Since Charlie has the wing mast and everyone else has the carbon stick it makes a significant difference.

Dave


Knew that, going by his house this afternoon if it isn't raining to measure the stick. Gonna stop at PYC to measure a carbon one that is on a trailer next day or 2.

Kevin


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: KevinRejda] #235242
07/26/11 02:49 PM
07/26/11 02:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
blush Make sure you understand the spinaker measurement. You could end up altering a perfectly good spin. Don't ask...


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: pgp] #235301
07/27/11 05:53 PM
07/27/11 05:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Speaking of width and light weight... CFR20 is 8'6".

Narrower "can" be fast. A 10' set of beams has been talked about, however.

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Will_R] #235687
08/03/11 11:23 AM
08/03/11 11:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Goclaw Offline
journeyman
Goclaw  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Kevin:

If you need to remeasure my main (#483) or my new Schurr sail, I am available at your leasure. Thanks for being an important part of this process!!!!

Also, as Captain Cardiac has indicated....the insane 20 Caballa has taken everyone's advice and are in the process of updating Version 1 of the Class Rules including the appropriate change from F20 to O20. Climb on board folks, the train is about to leave the station. Please keep your productive ideas coming (excluding any "you suck" or similar ones). I am hopeful that this class can invigorate the 20 platform.

Love,

Ken
"Kani Basami" N20

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Goclaw] #235696
08/03/11 02:08 PM
08/03/11 02:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast
O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
I see one small problem.
The only boat that fits is the N20. Would you race an older design (Nacra 6.0, mystere 6.0 etc)even up with an N20? You set the rules so the N20 is the scratch boat. Open up the beam width to 10' so all the 20s can play. But then you will no longer be the scratch boat.

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: orphan] #235697
08/03/11 02:54 PM
08/03/11 02:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
What about the Hobie Fox? Maybe with a new rig and foils it could be very competitive against the N20s?

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Tony_F18] #235699
08/03/11 03:18 PM
08/03/11 03:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast
O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
The same reason as the other older 20 somethings. By the time you spend the money on new rig and foils it would be less expensive to sell the boat and buy and a N20.

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: orphan] #235710
08/03/11 06:57 PM
08/03/11 06:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by orphan
I see one small problem.
The only boat that fits is the N20. Would you race an older design (Nacra 6.0, mystere 6.0 etc)even up with an N20? You set the rules so the N20 is the scratch boat. Open up the beam width to 10' so all the 20s can play. But then you will no longer be the scratch boat.


That's called B class(as in A,B,C,D) Tornado dominated it into non-existence. No reason to re-invent the wheel.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: orphan] #235711
08/03/11 06:59 PM
08/03/11 06:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
old hand
cyberspeed  Offline
old hand

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Originally Posted by orphan
I see one small problem.
The only boat that fits is the N20. Would you race an older design (Nacra 6.0, mystere 6.0 etc)even up with an N20? You set the rules so the N20 is the scratch boat. Open up the beam width to 10' so all the 20s can play. But then you will no longer be the scratch boat.


I also find it interesting that the name was changed to OPEN when it eliminates the recent boats in the higher performance range. If you are going to create another F18 class that is two feet longer, you should leave it as F20. There is already an open class. If indeed you are trying to set a more open class at least set the width to the Nacra F20 Carbon. I am sure Nacra did a lot of research and found the 10'6" beam to be the best choice for a 20' boat.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
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