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by Banzilla. 07/05/21 11:17 AM
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wings #236585
08/21/11 09:25 AM
08/21/11 09:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
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pgp Offline OP
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I'm thinking about modfying my Blade to accept a set of wings. I don't trapeze when I'm off shore alone and I think the wings would make the boat a little safer.

Do you suppose a set of H17 wings would work?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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Re: wings [Re: pgp] #236586
08/21/11 09:47 AM
08/21/11 09:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Do you think that trapezing is not safe? I think it is just a mental thing. I guess we are talking trapezing upwind, not downwind.

Re: wings [Re: Smiths_Cat] #236587
08/21/11 09:53 AM
08/21/11 09:53 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Not when you're off shore alone.

For some reason I've had trap wires fail twice in the last few months, still trying to figure that out.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: pgp] #236589
08/21/11 10:52 AM
08/21/11 10:52 AM
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Posts: 196
Arkansas, USA
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CaptainKirt Offline
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Arkansas, USA
The only way to get H17 wings to work would be to put 2 big holes in each hull! They "plug" into those "sockets" in the hull- what would work better is either a set of NACRA wings (these were a cruising option and plugged into the beams) or TheMightyHobie18 Magnum wings- which attach at the beams. Either will require modification (I suspect unless the NACRA beams just happen to be the right length).

Kirt


Kirt Simmons
Taipan, Flyer
Re: wings [Re: CaptainKirt] #236590
08/21/11 11:04 AM
08/21/11 11:04 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Thanks.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: CaptainKirt] #236591
08/21/11 11:07 AM
08/21/11 11:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 69
Live in Germany, House in UK, ...
DanTnz Offline
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I looked into this for my old N6.0, I couldn't get hold of the stock wings and so was going to build some to turn it into the ultimate med cruiser when I was out in Cyprus. I moved to Germany before I could make it and sold the boat.

The design I was going to make required long teflon inserts into the beam ends (which I was going to lathe up) with a hole milled through the centre to take the wing insert. The wing itself was going to be similar to the Hobie Tiger wings:

http://www.hobie-cat.net/download/catalogue/gb/wings.pdf

Which I think are a fairly good design, although you need to keep the boat flat to stop the lee wing dragging -esp in waves.

Re: wings [Re: DanTnz] #236593
08/21/11 11:27 AM
08/21/11 11:27 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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"Wave drag" is a concern!

Last edited by pgp; 08/21/11 11:36 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: pgp] #236596
08/21/11 01:16 PM
08/21/11 01:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Some years ago, we sailed a TheMightyHobie18 with wings from time to time. I liked the boat and the fact that you could trap from the wings or just sit their side by side in strong winds and feel safe. At some point I asked myself, what will happen if we let fly a hull too high, not even capsize. I would slip down of the wings, because my feet are not locked on a foot rail, fall down two and a half meter on the other wing - a solid metal tube, not nice. It just gave us wrong feeling of security. On the other side while trapping you are thethered to the boat. I lost more than once my stand in the trapez, but I never un-hooked. The trapez prevents you also to fall on the wrong side of the boat after capsize. My personal view is that one should always be locked to the boat, by the wire or footstrap or whatever, off-shore as in-shore. Must get a habbit like wearing a vest.

Quote
For some reason I've had trap wires fail twice in the last few months, still trying to figure that out.

Maintain always your boat, check your rigging regulary. If your trap wires fail, you should ask yourself which wire will fail next, so I would say at least check the wires, if not replace them. Where did it fail? Wire or shackle? Maybe you should change the shop who made it. Maybe you need stronger material or gauge.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: wings [Re: Smiths_Cat] #236598
08/21/11 03:38 PM
08/21/11 03:38 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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The failure was on the rope part and showed little wear prior to failure. The failures occurred after changing a system I'd used for many years so I've gone back to the proven system. And a stronger line!

I've owned both a H-18 magnum and H-17 and enjoyed trapping off the wings but agree, it is a long way to fall. I found the wings most useful late in the day as fatigue set in.

I always wear a vest.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: pgp] #236607
08/22/11 06:33 AM
08/22/11 06:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Definitely should review the line that you are using. I made the mistake of using a very strong line that had a core which did not stretch. When running through a small block or tight bend, the core fibers would tear all at once because it could not hold up to the repeated forces imparted by the different inner and outer radiuses. Fatigue would develop and the line would just snap without any warning. Gone back to Dyneema without any failures.


Kris Hathaway
Re: wings [Re: Kris Hathaway] #236614
08/22/11 07:34 AM
08/22/11 07:34 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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That sounds like what happened to me. Are you using a small block or just running through a thimble?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: pgp] #236620
08/22/11 08:37 AM
08/22/11 08:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Here's what I use:

[Linked Image]

The only difference with the current setup I'm using is I make an aluminum stopper instead of the UMHW one. Just like anything they do break. I used to luggage tag the sister clip on, but I think it wears better if you just splice it on there.

Like anything they need to be inspected for wear. I had one break last weekend that I knew wasn't long for this world, and I ended up swimming and losing the dog bone for my lack of action.


I'm boatless.
Re: wings [Re: Karl_Brogger] #236623
08/22/11 08:43 AM
08/22/11 08:43 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Thanks Karl. The last failure showed minimal wear, it had about 15 hours on it. It was a cored line and sheath showed just a little fuzzing. I had recently gone back to the black rope lock. Still haven't figured it out. But I've stopped using the rope lock.

Attached Files
rope lock.JPG (637 downloads)
Last edited by pgp; 08/22/11 08:47 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: pgp] #236628
08/22/11 09:09 AM
08/22/11 09:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Those little black rope locks pictured above cost me 2 DNF's at the Nataionals in Gulfport. The problem I had was the line was being pinched between the black ropelock and the tiny bullet block. Twice it cut through my (new) trap line and I went for a swim, then had to go to the beach to replace the trap line.

My fix was to;

1. get rid of the rope lock in favor of the little balls with the hole in the middle and
2. get rid of the little bullet block below the handle, just go with the thimble.

The drawback is, with the little stopper ball and figure 8 knot, it takes longer to adjust the line length if you ever need to move the ball. But at least the line doesn't chafe or get pinched against the little bullet block edges like it did with the little black ones.

I usually sail solo so I don't adjust mine very often, the crew trap gets addjusted only when taking on a new crew. My skipper line stays pretty much the same, the knot is so tight now I doubt if I could get it open anyway without using needle nose plyers.

I put the black ones on my kid's Hobie 14 which only has the thimbles, no turning blocks and I have not seen any chafe there yet, but it doesn't get used nearly as much.


Blade F16
#777
Re: wings [Re: Timbo] #236629
08/22/11 09:15 AM
08/22/11 09:15 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Thanks Tim. I'm sure that's what happened to me.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: pgp] #236641
08/22/11 11:04 AM
08/22/11 11:04 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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One day I am going to open a webshop with sailing parts and setups I can vouch for..

I weight in at 100kgs (220lbs) and know a bit about breakages. On our trapeze setup we progressed from self-tightening setups with uhmw stopper balls, ball bearing blocks and 2-4mm dynema line. Things kept on breaking!
We went through non-ball bearing blocks, heftier stopper balls etc. until we ended up with some pretty hefty steel cheeked blocks. Stitched stopper knots instead of uhmw stopping balls (the uhmw kept on breaking!) etc.

I think trapeze setups see quite high shock loads and unusual directions of load. Keeping it very simple and robust is my philosophy smile

Re: wings [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #236688
08/22/11 04:29 PM
08/22/11 04:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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The biggest issue is making sure the line isn't getting pinched anywhere. Not having knots is a good thing as well.


As far as wings go.... I had the skiff style wings on my FXone. I didn't like them for racing, but rec sailing they were kinda nice. Trapping off of them sucked just like any other wing, you can't get yourself really low like you can when you are dropping yourself off the edge of the hull. Once your but is over the rail, there isn't anything there to stop it. I managed once to end up with both legs in the air, upside down hanging on the wing while trying to get back on and keep it flying a hull. Hilarious, but slow....
My wings you had to be flying the hull pretty high to make them drag, the rudder had to be clear of the water before there was any noticeable impact of them dragging.


I'm boatless.
Re: wings [Re: Karl_Brogger] #236704
08/23/11 04:37 AM
08/23/11 04:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Here's what I use:

[Linked Image]

The only difference with the current setup I'm using is I make an aluminum stopper instead of the UMHW one. Just like anything they do break. I used to luggage tag the sister clip on, but I think it wears better if you just splice it on there.

Like anything they need to be inspected for wear. I had one break last weekend that I knew wasn't long for this world, and I ended up swimming and losing the dog bone for my lack of action.


Don't want to be the backseat driver, but...
It looks like a Harken micro block. Harken quotes a maximum safe working load of 100kg. I guess other manufacturers have similar loads. Add some shockloading to it and it will fail...
The splices are not stitched or locked otherwise. If unloaded (e.g. if you grab the handle), they can open easily.

I use basically the clamcleat setup, but don't have the lower block. It works on the loop without block. The chock cord (not in the picture) run from the loop through a small block at the cleat back to the boat, keeping it always under tension. The adjustable line is something 6 or 8mm strong. The trapez line is 3mm covered dynema. I don't try to safe weight in the load carrying part of the trapez. It doesn't look slick too. I had never a failure with the trapez and I don't want to have it.

Cheers,

Klaus

Attached Files
CL253-SB.gif (809 downloads)
Re: wings [Re: Smiths_Cat] #236709
08/23/11 06:18 AM
08/23/11 06:18 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Hi Klaus:

A lot of people use your system and seem to like it.

I was not aware of the 100 kilogram load limit on the block. Since I weigh 105 kilograms, that may well be part of the problem.

Thanks!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: wings [Re: Karl_Brogger] #236718
08/23/11 09:43 AM
08/23/11 09:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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[Linked Image]

Unlike Karl's setup in the pic, I've extended the block a few inches below the handle (acutally I've moved the handle higher). Despite making sure to soundly secure my glove's cuff, too many times I've had it get caught in the block. I did not want to tape the glove on for safety reasons.


Kris Hathaway
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