Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Racing Situation... #236606
08/22/11 05:01 AM
08/22/11 05:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
We are sailing downwind towards the gate on port tack (boat on the left) with equal speed as the boats coming in from starboard tack but we are about two boat lengths ahead (not enough to cross all boats).
After the gate there is a reach towards the finish (double trapping with the spin up).

What do you think is the best action to take in order to have the biggest chance of staying ahead of as many boats as possible (all boats finished within seconds).

Attached Files
gate-tactics.jpg (347 downloads)
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Tony_F18] #236610
08/22/11 06:04 AM
08/22/11 06:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
If I were Blue, my first inclination would be to slow down just enough to let Yellow and Green cross. Then I'd accelerate past their transoms, and hopefully roll gray while she gybes. That would put me to windward for the reach to the finish.

There is some risk in that move, though. Gray is inside overlapped right-of-way boat at the mark and Blue is not entitled to mark-room. If Blue can't roll Gray, then Gray could force her up above the mark.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Isotope235] #236611
08/22/11 06:16 AM
08/22/11 06:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Strange course. Gate means nothing if the next leg is a port reach, so the mark to the left is meaningless.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Tony_F18] #236612
08/22/11 06:16 AM
08/22/11 06:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Gray controls. He will be first in the zone and on starboard as well.

I would hold my course until clear of yellow and green, probably by breaking through their lee. Then sail for speed and the closest line to the finish.

If grey gets a good gybe and passes close to the mark he wins.



Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Isotope235] #236613
08/22/11 06:23 AM
08/22/11 06:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
enthusiast
Baltic  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Depends on the situation, obviously, but I'd try to luff and double-trap immediately and gain by this so much more speed that one is able to pass in front of the other boats - when you still get the mark.


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: RickWhite] #236616
08/22/11 06:46 AM
08/22/11 06:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by RickWhite
Strange course. Gate means nothing if the next leg is a port reach, so the mark to the left is meaningless.


Agreed...this is a simple mark rounding for the right mark.

Best chance is to get setup for the reach early and get a jump on the competition. You won't have any rights to get inside of anyone at the mark and to go below them will mean sailing in all their dirty air. I think the strong choice is to time a screaming reach to go over them just past the mark while they clean up from their gybe...but they are still in a pretty defendable position. You could possible gamble on the distance they'll loose in their gybes and just try to blow under them through their lee...either way, it's a difficult pass to make.

That's a pretty silly finish course. Looks like you really need to plan ahead and setup that mark rounding to NOT come in on port.


Jake Kohl
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Jake] #236617
08/22/11 06:58 AM
08/22/11 06:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Weren't they doing this type of finish at the worlds last year? I think it is becoming more popular.

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: pitchpoledave] #236622
08/22/11 07:41 AM
08/22/11 07:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
Weren't they doing this type of finish at the worlds last year? I think it is becoming more popular.


They were doing something similar in the AC World series but it was a reach off the top of the course after rounding A...which I think makes more sense.


Jake Kohl
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Jake] #236627
08/22/11 07:57 AM
08/22/11 07:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
veteran
dave mosley  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
Jake, wouldnt a reach after rounding the A mark be a "follow the leader" situation? Im not sure that is a good race course either, unless you are in the lead!


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Racing Situation... [Re: dave mosley] #236634
08/22/11 09:07 AM
08/22/11 09:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by dave mosley
Jake, wouldnt a reach after rounding the A mark be a "follow the leader" situation? Im not sure that is a good race course either, unless you are in the lead!


Yeah, and it's a short reach too. I can't see anyone making a pass on either of these finishes. The race is pretty much done at the mark. All this reaching finish does is spread out the boats making the actual finishing of boats further apart.


Jake Kohl
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Jake] #236635
08/22/11 09:11 AM
08/22/11 09:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by Jake
All this reaching finish does is spread out the boats making the actual finishing of boats further apart.

That is probably the actual purpose of the reach leg. It spreads the boats out a bit, and exposes the sail numbers better - making it easier for Race Committee to take finishes.

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Tony_F18] #236640
08/22/11 09:53 AM
08/22/11 09:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Would anyone in blue's position consider dousing the spin? Seems you'd have more control and probably as much speed.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Tony_F18] #236643
08/22/11 10:21 AM
08/22/11 10:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Assuming equal downwind speeds, the way this is drawn, blue passes yellow and green by at least a boat length and has a decent chance of passing gray since they have to jibe and blue only hardens up. Blue can stay outside of gray after they jibe to avoid any fouls and still have a decent chance of blasting through their lee on the way to the finish line. Chancing any inside move at the mark only exposes blue to a high risk, low return scenario. Green and yellow are likely to be so involved with each other that they allow blue to sail by either ahead and/or to leeward without much thought. I would rather be in blue's position than green or yellow and possibly even gray depending on wind speed. Since gray has a two boat lead to the mark over blue but has to jibe, blue should plan to take the safe route to leeward, pass the two boats closest, and have a decent chance at the boat already ahead (gray) to win.

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Isotope235] #236647
08/22/11 11:18 AM
08/22/11 11:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
All this reaching finish does is spread out the boats making the actual finishing of boats further apart.

That is probably the actual purpose of the reach leg. It spreads the boats out a bit, and exposes the sail numbers better - making it easier for Race Committee to take finishes.

That's exactly why it's done, and it's fairly common practice in dinghies (Lasers) and small keelboats (Solings).

I don't always agree with it, since it creates a convenience for the RC at the expense of the competition - and in cases like Tony's - competitor tactical uncertainty which can lead to "incidents." There are other ways for the RC to deal with a large fleet and downwind finishes that don't force a short, follow-the-leader finish leg.

Ultimately, it's what the class/fleet is used to - and wants - that counts.

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: mbounds] #236651
08/22/11 11:38 AM
08/22/11 11:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
so if grey slows down just a tad, she could likely control all the other boats because by doing so she could likely ensnare and prevent the duck by blue. So blue would either have to double gybe or throw on the speed brake and hope they could power back up through the bad air quickly.

Still having rights as leeward on yellow and green (and not enough room to clear a gybe), grey could overstand a hair and control the finish.


Jay

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: waterbug_wpb] #236682
08/22/11 02:15 PM
08/22/11 02:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
I've heard it called a "Hollywood finish" and have sailed a couple of regattas with it. Had a VERY entertaining finish with Randy one day... but... that's a story for another time, lol.

If it were me, I'd be agressive. Keep the hammer down and dive some if you have to get clear.

I'd expect to see gray go at the mark. If I were them, I'd be thinking, "blue has no rights, but has speed, we have to slow down to gybe and possibly douse" and therefor go as early as possible for the short distance to the boat end of the line.

Green will probably follow suit and maybe try to screw with them with a better gybe/douse.

Yellow is the real issue. They will be driven to overstand slighlty. Make that crossing and I'd say blue is money to the finish if they can keep the kite up.

Blue, I'd put the hammer down, take 1-2 steps aft and plan to double trap reach hard. Survival reaching while being ready to drop the kite or flog it for 2-3 seconds just to get across the line. Let them deal with gybing, dousing and resetting, use the advantage that you have by being on the correct tack.

It may be a longer disance, but aim for the ball and go for it. By not slowing down for the gybe, there's at least one boat lenght in there to blue's advantage if played right.

Granted, I'm agressive and sail with agressive skippers...

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Will_R] #236683
08/22/11 02:23 PM
08/22/11 02:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,223
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,223
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Will_R
I've heard it called a "Hollywood finish" and have sailed a couple of regattas with it. Had a VERY entertaining finish with Randy one day... but... that's a story for another time, lol.

If it were me, I'd be agressive. Keep the hammer down and dive some if you have to get clear.

I'd expect to see gray go at the mark. If I were them, I'd be thinking, "blue has no rights, but has speed, we have to slow down to gybe and possibly douse" and therefor go as early as possible for the short distance to the boat end of the line.

Green will probably follow suit and maybe try to screw with them with a better gybe/douse.

Yellow is the real issue. They will be driven to overstand slighlty. Make that crossing and I'd say blue is money to the finish if they can keep the kite up.

Blue, I'd put the hammer down, take 1-2 steps aft and plan to double trap reach hard. Survival reaching while being ready to drop the kite or flog it for 2-3 seconds just to get across the line. Let them deal with gybing, dousing and resetting, use the advantage that you have by being on the correct tack.

It may be a longer disance, but aim for the ball and go for it. By not slowing down for the gybe, there's at least one boat lenght in there to blue's advantage if played right.

Granted, I'm agressive and sail with agressive skippers...


Man, You are one bada$$ mofo... Where were those balls when you sailed with me?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #236685
08/22/11 02:50 PM
08/22/11 02:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Man, You are one bada$$ mofo... Where were those balls when you sailed with me?


I seem to remember passing people while paddling through Anglefish then grinding, catching and rolling other 20's till the wind shift.... Nevermind why we got dusted while in Card Sound ;-)

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Will_R] #236689
08/22/11 04:03 PM
08/22/11 04:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,223
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,223
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
I remember someone throwing a hissy fit. cry


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Jake] #236695
08/22/11 07:55 PM
08/22/11 07:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
addict
HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
In your origonal statement you claim to be approximently (2) boatlengths ahead .... but the drawing DOES NOT show that ... but if it is true ...

Then you'll reach the "zone" around the mark first .... remember it is a "snap-shot" ... that means no-one else will have inside overlap rights .... SOooooo ... at the point you enter the zone you need to hail LOUDLY ... NO INSIDE OVERLAP ... NO ROOM AT THE MARK ... and defend you position and do the sweetest best rounding you have ever done ....

Nooowww .... if "grey" gets to the zone first ... you'll be in trouble ... then stay alittle wide at first ... let them pass in front ... and see if they "slide" over alittle bit as they have to do a much harder/sharper turn/rounding ... which may slow them down ... you maybe able to accelerate inside of them, passing between the mark and them ... and then roll them w/ you greater boatspeed ...


This rounding takes superior boat handling skills ... in either case

Harry Murphey
H18Mag/P19MX

Last edited by HMurphey; 08/22/11 07:59 PM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 33 guests, and 213 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
diveboy, Carlos_Mata_Virgem, bfriendly, BlairC, Skahahobie
8093 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,385
Posts267,020
Members8,093
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1