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Changing sail configuration on N6.0 #236800
08/25/11 03:53 PM
08/25/11 03:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
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Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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In months past, I have posted here regarding the configuration of my N6.0, and weather having a bowfoil makes it an NA. It seems that it does since, when I enter a race, my competitors see it as an NA even though I don’t carry an overlapping jib, nor a huge Main. And that’s fine, I race because I have a great time and the other sailors that I meet. Although it does suck to rate the same as the I20.So be it.

However, I was at the tripoint regatta last weekend, (BTW, If you didn’t enter, you missed out on a great race and great conditions. What an absolute Blast!!!) and ran into one of the great long distance racers, and as far as I know great innovators of our sport, also, very familiar to the N6.0 specifically.
He came over and copped a gander at my 6.0 and proceeded to make a couple suggestions on changes I could make to make the boat a lot faster, and better in the waves downwind.

He suggested that I move my bowfoil, (and forestay) out to the tips of the bows( its currently a self tacker, pertty small compared to the NA), and get a new jib built which would be the same SqFt of the NA, but pushed forward, and a self tacker. Also, to rake the mast wwwaaaayyyyyy back for obvious reasons.(bows up, balance)

Any ideas on how this would effect pointing ability? He said that he did this and it doesn’t backwind the main like the overlapping NA Jib.
Thoughts?


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
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Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: AzCat] #236804
08/25/11 05:03 PM
08/25/11 05:03 PM
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TeamChums Offline
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For starters, even the original 6.0 had a bowfoil. The jib sheeted to the track on the crossbeam. The N/A had the overlapping jib and more roach in the main which required a stouter mast with double diamonds. You may have been rated an N/A because of the squaretop. Regardless, a N/A with a chute is still rated slower than a N20. Looking at the picture, did you have a roller furling hooter on there along with the endpole snuffer?
As far as altering the rig like Roy says, keep this in mind; The last Milt Ingram Race I did, Roy and another guy showed up with two 6.0 N/A's rigged that way. They made it well known that they were going to destroy all the N20's with those rigs. They looked nice at the starting line but I never saw them after that. It was a light air race and they were so far back when we rounded the first rig, we couldn't see them anymore.
If you go that route, lengthen your bridal wires three inches and shorten your shrouds about an inch and a half or less.
One of Roy's buddies showed up with one of those rigs one year and I beat him boat for boat with my old Hobie 21 (600+ lb boat). The 6.0 is a smooth ride but with all the money you'd be putting into it, you could get an N20 and be done with it.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: AzCat] #236809
08/25/11 10:02 PM
08/25/11 10:02 PM
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Annapolis,MD
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Here's my take from sailing my 6.0. Don't rake the mast (unless it's blowing). I always had the best results in racing when the mast was mostly stood up. With the stock rig this way there were times when we could give N20s a run (until the chutes came out in decent breeze). Working through the set ups I found a sweet spot for the stock jib that allowed the boat to point very nicely. So I view the stock jib set up as quite fine, except for the flesh ripping cross wire.

My sailing partner in crime had a very nice set of Smyth sails for his 6.0. We loved the main - square top of same area as stock (triangle removed from foot). The jib was bigger than stock, and a real pita to get set so it didn't mess with the airflow over the main.

Against that backdrop (and having seen the pictures of the boats with the foil moved forward), here's what I've always wanted to do - square top main like the Smyth one we had. Leave the foil where it is, but run a self tacking jib to the front beam. The foot of that jib is still bigger than the N20 jib. Have the jib cut similar to the maxi-blade config that folks have made for the Corsairs (kind of a fat head non-overlapping thing). Then add a more modern cut spinny, not the huge things they used to run for Worrell, or even what the NE guys used to run, but something cut more flat that can have a wider range - think Tornado or N-20 style.


Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: TeamChums] #236810
08/26/11 12:22 AM
08/26/11 12:22 AM
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Arizona
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LEE "Looking at the picture, did you have a roller furling hooter on there along with the endpole snuffer?"

Ummm... What picture?

The boat with the spin and Hooter is a 5.8, Emmanuel Dagnet's boat.

For the tripoint, I had the mast prety straight up. It was a spin run to Gina, and a beam to the east end. By the time I hit the island, the rest of the fleet looked like the tip of my pinky fingernail at arms leingth.I MEAN THEY WERE ALL PRETTY SMALL!!! The only boats that I hadnt passed were Afterburner( as I got to the east end of the island AB popped out from behind the west end into view for the rest of the fleet), two tri's, and roy's 21'6x9'6 rocket. Roy lost his jib 1/2 way down the island leg and had to flip the boat and tie it up. Made him easier to catch.
Once we hit the west end, the winds were up pretty good, and we really didnt know where to go. It was a bit beamy and hot to set the spin, we stuffed the lee bow pretty good a couple times under main and jib. Would have been a great time to have an s load of rake then. John S got past us not long into the return leg, and screamed back to the finish, Which was kinda good because then we had an idea where to point the "Wet Kitty".
For next year, I know to point at the white spot on the hill, and the red roof of the hotel at the harbor. Therefore, I wont need anyone to follow, John!

I dont know if im ready to give up this boat yet. After what I saw last weekend, I think I may need to run another tripoint on the Wet Kitty with a few adjustments.
Now, if we could get those Cali guys to set up an anacapa weekend, one day clockwise, one day counter, I think us zonies would have a catgasem. START PLANNING IT PLEASE!
btw, pierpoint bay YC, and Santa Barbara YC's were fantastic, very acomodating.
Thank you to the Hobie fleets that let us crash their party, and the F18 fleet that didnt mind too much that I held up their finishes...and starts.
John Schwartz, Thank you for the logistical help, we couldnt have done it without you. Get that garage ready for next year.
and thank you for allowing me to kick your butt on the first two legs of the tripoint.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: AzCat] #236819
08/26/11 09:36 AM
08/26/11 09:36 AM
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In preparation for next years tri-point,i will attend roy's backyard bootcamp -winter session!-for hard chargers who wear baseball helmets!! Have been researching salton sea? Where can i get info on rocky point race you mentioned,also buccaneer days catalina if you like it rowdy!not a race but a fun time .working hard to get 5.5 tip top and ready she's going to roy's too.


wallzie
5.2
5.5

Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Walls619] #236829
08/26/11 02:19 PM
08/26/11 02:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
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Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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for the rocky point onfo, go to the fleet 42 . org site and i think its called the rocky point challenge(RPC). Hobie fleet 514 will be there also.try this.
http://www.fleet42.org/rockyPointChallenge.html
Is this smokie?

Last edited by azcat; 08/26/11 02:20 PM.

Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: AzCat] #236831
08/26/11 03:06 PM
08/26/11 03:06 PM
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If you do anything to that boat move the bow foil forward like Roy said and get a set of 10" beams... like Roy's. I was looking at a 6.0 in the Bay Area right before I bought the Inter 20 and was planning to do just that, that is make it a 10' beam boat....

The other guy that was there talking to Roy... Tim (shoulder surgery)has his 6.0 set up like this and it hauls.

Glad you guys had a good time and look forward to seeing you next year. As for a counter clockwise course we have the Milt Ingram Trophy Race a month earlier. Some other Arizona sailors would come over and do both while leaving their boats here between races.



Last edited by Ventucky Red; 08/26/11 03:07 PM.
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: TeamChums] #236833
08/26/11 03:11 PM
08/26/11 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
For starters, even the original 6.0 had a bowfoil. The jib sheeted to the track on the crossbeam. The N/A had the overlapping jib and more roach in the main which required a stouter mast with double diamonds. You may have been rated an N/A because of the squaretop. Regardless, a N/A with a chute is still rated slower than a N20. Looking at the picture, did you have a roller furling hooter on there along with the endpole snuffer?
As far as altering the rig like Roy says, keep this in mind; The last Milt Ingram Race I did, Roy and another guy showed up with two 6.0 N/A's rigged that way. They made it well known that they were going to destroy all the N20's with those rigs. They looked nice at the starting line but I never saw them after that. It was a light air race and they were so far back when we rounded the first rig, we couldn't see them anymore.
If you go that route, lengthen your bridal wires three inches and shorten your shrouds about an inch and a half or less.
One of Roy's buddies showed up with one of those rigs one year and I beat him boat for boat with my old Hobie 21 (600+ lb boat). The 6.0 is a smooth ride but with all the money you'd be putting into it, you could get an N20 and be done with it.


Was that the year Roy said "ahh ____ this _____ half way through the race and sailed home to Malibu?

Last edited by Ventucky Red; 08/26/11 04:11 PM.
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: TeamChums] #236841
08/26/11 07:56 PM
08/26/11 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
For starters, even the original 6.0 had a bowfoil.


Are you 100% sure about this statement?

Originally Posted by TeamChums
You may have been rated an N/A because of the squaretop.


Do you want to hang your hat on this one too?

None of the old NACRA boats, left the factory with a square top.

Further more Around 1992/1993 Performance Cats developed the NA version which had the bow foil, bigger jib, and a slightly bigger pin-top main. This added 9 Sq’ and that increase the sail area to 264. Also, the mast configuration changed from the regular 6.0 to the NA with the addition of a wider set of spreaders and a higher attachment point for the outer diamonds and the second set of inner diamonds.

BTW - Mr. Wet-Kitty the back in the day the Express was rated 59.7

Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Nimrod] #236844
08/26/11 10:17 PM
08/26/11 10:17 PM
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
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Quote
Do you want to hang your hat on this one too?



Yes and no. Maybe I should have been more specific. The earlier ones had a round spreader bar rather than a foil with the smaller jib sheeting to the front crossbeam on a track (not really a self tacker but worked like one.) What I meant by the square top was rating him as a N/A due to larger sail area with the sq top main. With that clarification, yes, I will hang my hat on that along with my underwear grin
Wet Kitty; I've always liked the lines of the 6.0 much better than the N20, so I agree with you not wanting to get rid of her. Two things I don't like about it are the mast and rudder system. If you want to throw some money at it and make it a line honors boat, get the new alluminum N20 mast and sails on it with a tornado chute or an updated one from Glaser. Put a boom on it and don't look back. I think that boat would run with any well sailed N20 with that rig. Switch to the Infusion rudder system and the leaf rudders. Get some 9'6 or 10' beams and be done with it. BTW my H21se was 9'9" and I never tilted it, just towed it the way it was fully extended and never had a problem till I crossed the border at Lukeville. The trailer scraped the posts going through on each side. The far right lane is for truckers and is a little wider. Send me a PM with your number and I'd love to talk with you more about this.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: TeamChums] #236862
08/28/11 07:10 AM
08/28/11 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
Do you want to hang your hat on this one too?



Yes and no. Maybe I should have been more specific. The earlier ones had a round spreader bar rather than a foil with the smaller jib sheeting to the front crossbeam on a track (not really a self tacker but worked like one.) What I meant by the square top was rating him as a N/A due to larger sail area with the sq top main. With that clarification, yes, I will hang my hat on that along with my underwear grin


Lee,

If my memory serves me correctly the original NACRA 6.0 did not come with a bow foil/spreader. They had the conventional style bridal wire to forestay configuration. It was set up very similar to the NACRA 5.8 for which it was designed after.
In looking at the Murray's catalog they have two offerings for the 6.0 bridal wire and specify the NA bridal foil as one of them. Why are they offering this?

From what I understand, before the NA version, Randy Smyth developed aftermarket 6.0 and called it the Express. This was done to compensate for the anemic sail plan on the original 6.0. I beleive it had a bigger square top main and genneaker style jib, and that is where some MAY have used a bridal foil “round spreader” bar.

Regarding Wet Kitty he was rated as NACRA 6.0NA with the 5% square top (which was a gift) and the spinnaker hit. We gave him credit for carrying a smaller jib by inverting the penalty number.

I'll confirm this with Jack on Tuesday.

Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Ventucky Red] #236866
08/28/11 04:12 PM
08/28/11 04:12 PM
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Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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John, wee all agreed on the numbers used for my boat. I dont have a problem with that at all. The race was a blast.
But I can carry a lot more sail area without much penalty by uping the area of both the main and jib to NA specs since its pretty clear that a lot of racers are going to fight me on an "original" rating. I am using the sail area of that lackluster "Original" that you mentioned in your post. Other than the area added using the foil that is. The squaretop was added with the area taken from the bottom of the original sail, so I didnt gain there other than moving the area to the top of the sail. I think it will be harder to bring the rating to the boat than to bring the boat to the rating.
Or, get an inter. But that would be too easy, and I wouldnt have an excuse for getting my a$$ handed to me.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: AzCat] #236912
08/29/11 04:17 PM
08/29/11 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by azcat
John, wee all agreed on the numbers used for my boat. I dont have a problem with that at all. The race was a blast.
But I can carry a lot more sail area without much penalty by uping the area of both the main and jib to NA specs since its pretty clear that a lot of racers are going to fight me on an "original" rating. I am using the sail area of that lackluster "Original" that you mentioned in your post. Other than the area added using the foil that is. The squaretop was added with the area taken from the bottom of the original sail, so I didnt gain there other than moving the area to the top of the sail. I think it will be harder to bring the rating to the boat than to bring the boat to the rating.
Or, get an inter. But that would be too easy, and I wouldnt have an excuse for getting my a$$ handed to me.


I was clarifying for Lee what we did for your boat.

As for next year, I am toying with the idea of using a Texel style system that takes into consideration everything that is currently on the boat as I anticipate a few other "Franken-NACRAS showing up.

I am doing some homework now on how this system works


Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Ventucky Red] #236952
08/30/11 09:52 AM
08/30/11 09:52 AM
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I have a pimped out 5.8 - since the 6.0 was based on the 5.8, some of these observations probably apply.

My main is a Glaser squaretop, same area as the original, but essentially with the lower triangle moved to the top. The jib is the same size as the original, but I tack it to a NA foil - longer luff, shorter foot so it self-tacks. I also run a kite, slightly larger than an F18 kite.

Despite the fact that the main and jib are the same size as original, I take the 5.8NA number as the base handicap, on account of the foil. Then add on an MN and SP adjustment.

Maybe that's fair, maybe not. But it's actually never made any difference. We usually check the results both ways, occasionally taking the Original vs. the NA will change a position in a race, but never in a regatta. It's a good exercise to do if you're worried about handicap ratings - Take some race results and see how low your handicap has to go before you drop a position in a race, and how high it has to go before you go up a position. If you're anything like us, the range is surprisingly large.

I didn't plan on racing the 5.8 this year. However, since wrecking the Nacra CF20 in the GT300, we pulled the 5.8 back out and have done several regattas in it while waiting for parts. Since getting back on the 5.8 I've noticed that it is really lacking in buoyancy compared to newer designs. It doesn't make much difference downwind on VMG angles in less than 15 knots or so. But if we have to hold the kite on a high angle, or go downwind in big air we can't quite hang with the F18s despite having a longer waterline and more sail area. The 5.8 just maxes out, and more power mostly just puts more hull in the water, while the newer designs still have some speed to pile on.

I never really thought about the lack of buoyancy since the 5.8 doesn't really mind being driven with a hull underwater, but that doesn't mean its fast.

I don't regret re-rigging my 5.8 at all. It's fun, very forgiving, and fast enough that when racing F18s the better skipper will usually be first across the line. But there have been great things done with hull designs since the 5.8 and 6.0 came out, and they're well worth taking advantage of.

Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Rhino1302] #236977
08/30/11 05:24 PM
08/30/11 05:24 PM
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Wow, the last time something like this happen, me being wrong that is, Slcik Willy was getting it on in the Oval Office blush

I just got off the phone with the factory regarding the pedigree of the 6.0.

What was noted was that all of the 6.0's left the factory with a bridal foil and as a matter of fact this was the first boat to do so in the NACRA family, shortly followed by the 5.8 and then the 5.5. What I found interesting it was mentioned there were none of these sold on the west coast as many of the 6.0 went to Europe and Florida to race in the Worell and some and other races, but as he said don't hold his hand to the fire on that…. And, it was shortly after the introduction of the 6.0 that they went to the NA style that afforded a much larger main and jib.

Opss.... we'll get it fixed next year...

Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Ventucky Red] #237253
09/07/11 10:40 AM
09/07/11 10:40 AM
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Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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"NACRA 6.0na CLASS RULE CHANGE
The factory has decided to try to catch up with the boat owners after 8-9 years and they have devised a new set of rules for the Nacra 6.0na. Class square top mains are allowed, 13' spinnaker poles max. (open to carbon or aluminum) and only factory (Nacra 20) spinnakers or used factory supplied spinnakers."

This was taken from Rick Bliss's blog on his NEC webpage. Dosnt this mean that the SqTop is a freebee now?


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: AzCat] #237281
09/08/11 05:43 AM
09/08/11 05:43 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by azcat
"NACRA 6.0na CLASS RULE CHANGE
The factory has decided to try to catch up with the boat owners after 8-9 years and they have devised a new set of rules for the Nacra 6.0na. Class square top mains are allowed, 13' spinnaker poles max. (open to carbon or aluminum) and only factory (Nacra 20) spinnakers or used factory supplied spinnakers."

This was taken from Rick Bliss's blog on his NEC webpage. Dosnt this mean that the SqTop is a freebee now?


If you use the N6.0NE rating, yes.


Jake Kohl
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Jake] #237283
09/08/11 06:17 AM
09/08/11 06:17 AM
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Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Back when I had a 6.0na the N6.0NE rules included a bigger spin than the N20 spin and not a square top main...maybe its a fair trade off.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Jake] #237284
09/08/11 06:21 AM
09/08/11 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by azcat
"NACRA 6.0na CLASS RULE CHANGE
The factory has decided to try to catch up with the boat owners after 8-9 years and they have devised a new set of rules for the Nacra 6.0na. Class square top mains are allowed, 13' spinnaker poles max. (open to carbon or aluminum) and only factory (Nacra 20) spinnakers or used factory supplied spinnakers."

This was taken from Rick Bliss's blog on his NEC webpage. Dosnt this mean that the SqTop is a freebee now?


If you use the N6.0NE rating, yes.


And that carries a rating of 60.4 which is just about where we had Wet Kitty rated at...

Re: Changing sail configuration on N6.0 [Re: Ventucky Red] #237323
09/08/11 03:29 PM
09/08/11 03:29 PM
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Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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Yes, I think we left the SqTop out of the equation when we figured the rating. F'ed up and got it right.

BTW, I will be picking up an I20 this weekend, It is a bit of a mess right now, But im getting it dirt cheap. Cant wait.

Anyone know an I20 with red rudders from the northwest?


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA

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