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Texel Rating System or others! #236943
08/30/11 08:11 AM
08/30/11 08:11 AM
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Ventucky Red Offline OP
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I am thinking it may be time for a change... at least for our little series of island races.

I have been living in the DP-N world for a long time only for the fact it is easy, I have just about all of the ratings memorized, etc... but I am seeing some of the deficiencies it has for "modified" boats etc...... And I what to run both of these side by side for next years races.

Has anyone deployed the Texel Handicap or any other similar system? If so could you shoot me a PM with what you see the works and doesn’t work?

Thanks

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Ventucky Red] #236945
08/30/11 09:44 AM
08/30/11 09:44 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
I am thinking it may be time for a change... at least for our little series of island races.

I have been living in the DP-N world for a long time only for the fact it is easy, I have just about all of the ratings memorized, etc... but I am seeing some of the deficiencies it has for "modified" boats etc...... And I what to run both of these side by side for next years races.

Has anyone deployed the Texel Handicap or any other similar system? If so could you shoot me a PM with what you see the works and doesn’t work?

Thanks


Why not discuss it here? What are you afraid of? grin


Jake Kohl
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Jake] #236950
08/30/11 10:32 AM
08/30/11 10:32 AM
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Yea, keep it in the open. John, I think Texel would be great for the Island Series. Portsmouth is completely unfair in distance racing. The numbers weren't generated from that type of racing.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: TeamChums] #236958
08/30/11 12:44 PM
08/30/11 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
I am thinking it may be time for a change... at least for our little series of island races.

I have been living in the DP-N world for a long time only for the fact it is easy, I have just about all of the ratings memorized, etc... but I am seeing some of the deficiencies it has for "modified" boats etc...... And I what to run both of these side by side for next years races.

Has anyone deployed the Texel Handicap or any other similar system? If so could you shoot me a PM with what you see the works and doesn’t work?

Thanks


Why not discuss it here? What are you afraid of? grin


Not afraid of anything, do you have something you would like to add to the conversation pro or con on Texel v. DP-N?

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Yea, keep it in the open. John, I think Texel would be great for the Island Series. Portsmouth is completely unfair in distance racing. The numbers weren't generated from that type of racing.


My concern is going to be for the Frankenboats such as the NACRA 6.5 and the other 6.0's with the 10' beams and the list goes on t. I don't think it is the race venue that Portsmouth has wrong it is the modification multipliers are out dated.

I didn't graduate Phi Betta Kappa from the Harvard School of Rocket Surgery, but I do know a wider beam and a taller mast does more for performance to our boats than the 1% allowance that Portsmouth is giving it?

Just my opinion..


Last edited by Ventucky Red; 08/30/11 12:47 PM.
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Ventucky Red] #236974
08/30/11 05:11 PM
08/30/11 05:11 PM
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TeamChums Offline
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Quote
I didn't graduate Phi Betta Kappa from the Harvard School of Rocket Surgery,


Yea but you are a freekin Jew, so that counts for something. Beats being a Pineapple head.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: TeamChums] #236978
08/30/11 06:26 PM
08/30/11 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
I didn't graduate Phi Betta Kappa from the Harvard School of Rocket Surgery,


Yea but you are a freekin Jew, so that counts for something. Beats being a Pineapple head.


Nice touch Lee... where is your trailer home parked these days? Well at least you speak English in a dialect I can understand....


Last edited by Ventucky Red; 08/30/11 06:28 PM.
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Ventucky Red] #236979
08/30/11 06:45 PM
08/30/11 06:45 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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We have tried Texel ratings for our 3 day long distance event and the problem is that it doesn't have wind ratings. I think the portsmouth numbers are fairly close for the standard boats why not just make an adjustment for the modifiers.

Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Ventucky Red] #236999
08/31/11 08:57 AM
08/31/11 08:57 AM
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Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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Wider beam is only faster in big wide. It will be slower in light air. The wind adjustments will relect this. The hit for the mast should be on several mods. The hit for the mast. The hit for the none stock sail. The hit if the sail is more than 5% larger than stock. I am pretty sure there is a note that says anything that is non stock takes a min hit of .995.

Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: orphan] #237003
08/31/11 10:15 AM
08/31/11 10:15 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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You guys do realize that these adjustments in the table are simply made up... They are just a reasonable guess as to what a change would mean to a boats performance. There is no large amount of data which supports the accuracy of the rating modification. When you combine them.... Bigger main... smaller jib... you are really guessing.

There are no statistics to support the corrections... There is no model which supports the corrections.

The rest of the world calls this system PHRF.... IE... they look at the performance...look at the crew, look at how well sailed the boat is... make a good guess as to the rating change and make it so. The ratings vary across the country.

For beach cats... we take the correction factors as the ten commandments.... The rest of the world would use the correction tables as a guideline and then use their judgement as to what the fair rating should be.

Ie in big boats..... lower your boom (bigger main sail).... take a 6 sec per mile hit. Why 6 sec... well... that is the smallest change you can make that will make a difference in the corrected time based on the resolution of the PHRF system.

Another point.

Texel does (did have) a high wind /low wind rating system but the EU clubs simply did not bother. The EU sailors did not find it important enough to use it.

Most distance races usually specify a single number rating... eg DPN or single Texel number because who can say what the average wind speed is on the course... And... do you use the average wind of the slow boats... or the fast boats...

Final point. the accuracy of the wind speed adjustments for 45 minute buoy races were created in the era of the Hobie 16, Prindle 16. Beufort 2-3 means that Hobie 16's rating is constant relative to a Prindle 16 over this wind range. AT B4, 12 mph... they are now able to fly a hull and the ratings must change. The newer designs (A cat) are much more powered up and fly a hull much sooner (B3). Obviously, Flying a hull is the big performance factor that the rating should reflect. At high winds... it is all about depowering and drag.

A modern rating scheme would attempt to rate A cats and Hobie 18's at each Beaufort range. Of course, some races will be oscillating wind pressure... so which rating would you use?.. Is it worth the hassle?... Your mileage will vary.

Fact of life... handicap racing can't separate two sailor's performance like a one design race. A single rating system will not be as resolving as a multiple number rating system.

The issue is... What rating system FAIRLY adjusts a rating for changes in key performance measures. Which Rating system FAIRLY gets a rating for a new design instantly... because having it fixed a year later is not acceptable.
The choices are
PHRF
Portsmouth
SCHRS or TEXEL (measurement)

In my opinion... the worst option in 2011 is Portsmouth.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Mark Schneider] #237005
08/31/11 11:11 AM
08/31/11 11:11 AM
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what would my rating be for a nacra 5.5 sl no spin?

smokie
5.5
5.2-for sale

Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Ventucky Red] #237007
08/31/11 11:39 AM
08/31/11 11:39 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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No rating system is fair for everybody. Race, have fun and relax smile

There is also SCHRS: http://www.schrs.com/


Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237012
08/31/11 12:39 PM
08/31/11 12:39 PM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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+1

Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237013
08/31/11 01:15 PM
08/31/11 01:15 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
No rating system is fair for everybody.


Rolf... anyone... and your point is????

Sailors always say this crap... and its just not helpful... The inference you made and the message delivered is off base? Why don't you come out and say it clearly and directly...

Is it not worth playing the racing game because the game is rigged by this unfair rating system?
Some sailors are wining because they take advantage of an unfair rating system?
It's not worth playing the game because the winner is mostly determined by what the conditions were and which are not fixed by the unfair rating system.
Ah... why waste your time... just go out and sail in a circle and pay no mind about the race... don't hit any body.

You don't say this crap this clearly because you don't believe it. You actually know that handicap rating systems can range from simple to the complex and given the complexity that you want to bother with... they do a pretty good job of sorting out the SAILING PERFORMANCE OF THE TEAMS and eliminating a very complex think like a sailboats performance in the environment.

Is handicap racing PERFECT... NO.... Portsmouth (back in the day)... PHRF/Portsmouth today and SCHRS or TEXEL do a pretty good job of handicapping the boats... Could the systems do better... perhaps.. but it will add a lot of complexity.

is it UNFAIR..... NO! (Lots of well meaning people work to make the system as good as possible...) Handicap Racing is Not Perfect is VERY VERY different then NOT FAIR!

Quote
Race, have fun and relax smile


Bingo....
For a racer... the handicap system is the LAST thing to worry about.

For a Regatta organizer... the details of the handicap system chosen is important because it should remain transparent and irrelevant to the racers. That is the OA's job!

If you are worried about how you will perform under one rating system or the other...you have lost the point of the game. You are behaving like a dog gnawing on their tail.... nothing good is going to happen.

I will bet that you won't
Quote
Race, have fun and relax smile


Handicap racing gets more boats on the line racing each other... This tends to keep more sailors racing in the long run.. Blather that is Not Fair undermines this outcome.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Mark Schneider] #237015
08/31/11 01:28 PM
08/31/11 01:28 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Too many words, not enough content to make it worth reading.

The point you caught but did not agree with is that racing is not such a serious business, and that no rating system is fair for all boats. Just a fact to accept and go doing what you enjoy anyway.

Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237018
08/31/11 01:34 PM
08/31/11 01:34 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
No rating system is fair for everybody. Race, have fun and relax smile

There is also SCHRS: http://www.schrs.com/



+1

and I'm not saying handicap systems are useless. I'm just saying that they all do some things better than others - but all have flaws and to argue and debate the finer points of one against the other is like arguing what color the sky is. It's handicap racing...it's a close approximation no matter what system you use.


Jake Kohl
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Jake] #237019
08/31/11 02:05 PM
08/31/11 02:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
No rating system is fair for everybody. Race, have fun and relax smile

There is also SCHRS: http://www.schrs.com/



+1

and I'm not saying handicap systems are useless. I'm just saying that they all do some things better than others - but all have flaws and to argue and debate the finer points of one against the other is like arguing what color the sky is. It's handicap racing...it's a close approximation no matter what system you use.

Well at last... at least you guys have moved off of the UNFAIR label!

t's handicap racing...it's a close approximation no matter what system you use
TO WHAT exactly...

A cats are now racing very stiff platforms ($$$) with next generation stiff masts ($) curved Foils ($$) and of course a new sail to match ($) against much older boats without these developments. I don't call this situation UNFAIR (approximate)... I call it development class racing.

I don't call Hobie Tigers (or Inter 18's) racing the C2 (or whatever)... UNFAIR (approximate).... I call it Formula 18 racing.

I don't call 10 year old soft Hobie 16's racing against 1 year old and stiffer Hobie 16's UNFAIR (approximate).... I call it Hobie SMOD racing.

'Unfair" or "approximate" are just such loaded words!
I call Handicap Racing.... Handicap Racing.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 08/31/11 03:34 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Mark Schneider] #237021
08/31/11 03:56 PM
08/31/11 03:56 PM
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Ventucky Red Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

There is also SCHRS: http://www.schrs.com/



Thanks found that the other night and it seems to be very simple and fair. As well it gives some real guidelines for the measurements. Which does not seem to terribly hard to do…

Last edited by Ventucky Red; 08/31/11 03:57 PM.
Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: Ventucky Red] #237030
08/31/11 07:01 PM
08/31/11 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

There is also SCHRS: http://www.schrs.com/



Thanks found that the other night and it seems to be very simple and fair. As well it gives some real guidelines for the measurements. Which does not seem to terribly hard to do…


It's not; you need a couple of tape measures; 2 spirit levels; some pegs to peg out the sail(s) and a little time. And ideally a helper or 2.


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Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: scooby_simon] #237033
08/31/11 07:52 PM
08/31/11 07:52 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Really!? Are we still trying to crack this nut. Handicap is just an excuse to bring everyone to the same spot after a nice sail to drink and tell lies nothing more nothing less.

There are simply too many variables and the system (any system) is too easily exploited to determine a real victor, anyone that thinks different is just kidding themselves.


David Ingram
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Re: Texel Rating System or others! [Re: scooby_simon] #237034
08/31/11 07:54 PM
08/31/11 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

There is also SCHRS: http://www.schrs.com/



Thanks found that the other night and it seems to be very simple and fair. As well it gives some real guidelines for the measurements. Which does not seem to terribly hard to do…


It's not; you need a couple of tape measures; 2 spirit levels; some pegs to peg out the sail(s) and a little time. And ideally a helper or 2.



Huh! Talking production boats with modified sails. Between this site and Texel's site much of this is already done. The only thing we need to measure is the sails themselves and with that I may demand a certificate from the sail maker as to their square feet/meters.

Gawd...should have gone to the Harvard School of Rocket Surgery - NOT!

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